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	<title>Comments on: Is &#8220;cheap&#8221; the new &#8220;green&#8221;?</title>
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	<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2008/03/is-cheap-the-new-green.html</link>
	<description>Financial independence, frugality, self-sufficiency, ecology, capitalism, and voluntary simplicity</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 15:51:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Traciatim</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2008/03/is-cheap-the-new-green.html#comment-643</link>
		<dc:creator>Traciatim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Mar 2008 16:20:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2008/03/is-cheap-the-new-green.html#comment-643</guid>
		<description>Oh, an another thing about the Opel . . . or a few:

What's it's 20-65MPH time for merging on the highway?

Does it meet safety regulations for road driving? 

What's it's 60-0 stopping distance? 

How about front and side impact ratings? 

If you're following the theme from my last post, anyone can take my Ford Taurus, run it downhill with a back wind and throw it in neutral the whole way and get 80+MPG . . . but it's not practical to compare that to every day driving.

I wonder how many MPG the 29MPG 2008 Yaris gets when it's driving through New York during the day . . . hybrids aside all these small cars are terrible unless they are in lab conditions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, an another thing about the Opel . . . or a few:</p>
<p>What&#8217;s it&#8217;s 20-65MPH time for merging on the highway?</p>
<p>Does it meet safety regulations for road driving? </p>
<p>What&#8217;s it&#8217;s 60-0 stopping distance? </p>
<p>How about front and side impact ratings? </p>
<p>If you&#8217;re following the theme from my last post, anyone can take my Ford Taurus, run it downhill with a back wind and throw it in neutral the whole way and get 80+MPG . . . but it&#8217;s not practical to compare that to every day driving.</p>
<p>I wonder how many MPG the 29MPG 2008 Yaris gets when it&#8217;s driving through New York during the day . . . hybrids aside all these small cars are terrible unless they are in lab conditions.</p>
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		<title>By: Traciatim</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2008/03/is-cheap-the-new-green.html#comment-642</link>
		<dc:creator>Traciatim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Mar 2008 16:07:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2008/03/is-cheap-the-new-green.html#comment-642</guid>
		<description>" . . . your foot can immediately transmit power into forward travel, and that delay for the cars to accelerate past you is glaring."

Yes, as you put your full amount of force and weight on a pedal you can pull away faster than a car that's barely moved the tach past idle . . . great comparison. Try taking your family on a weekend camping trip on your bike.

" . . . but for a 1 mile trip, I’ll just bet the group I can get there faster on foot. How about 6 minutes?"

Yeah, I'm sure your moving at 10MPH on foot walking with a group on an outing. Have you ever got on a treadmill and ran at 10MPH? It's pretty quick. Average walking speed for a general 'stroll down the street' is probably more like 2-3MPH if you have a group and will be chatting and junk on the way and/or enjoying yourself. That puts it at 20-30 minutes or so for a mile.

There are thousands of ways to be green every day, but let's be reasonable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8221; . . . your foot can immediately transmit power into forward travel, and that delay for the cars to accelerate past you is glaring.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes, as you put your full amount of force and weight on a pedal you can pull away faster than a car that&#8217;s barely moved the tach past idle . . . great comparison. Try taking your family on a weekend camping trip on your bike.</p>
<p>&#8221; . . . but for a 1 mile trip, I’ll just bet the group I can get there faster on foot. How about 6 minutes?&#8221;</p>
<p>Yeah, I&#8217;m sure your moving at 10MPH on foot walking with a group on an outing. Have you ever got on a treadmill and ran at 10MPH? It&#8217;s pretty quick. Average walking speed for a general &#8217;stroll down the street&#8217; is probably more like 2-3MPH if you have a group and will be chatting and junk on the way and/or enjoying yourself. That puts it at 20-30 minutes or so for a mile.</p>
<p>There are thousands of ways to be green every day, but let&#8217;s be reasonable.</p>
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		<title>By: Sydney Lagier</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2008/03/is-cheap-the-new-green.html#comment-633</link>
		<dc:creator>Sydney Lagier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Mar 2008 01:21:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2008/03/is-cheap-the-new-green.html#comment-633</guid>
		<description>Hot chocolate maker!  I didn't even know there was such a thing until my in-laws got it for me the Christmas before last.  I do drink hot chocolate every morning--so they thought they were being clever.  But I make it in the cup I'm going to drink it from, put it in the microwave, and then then put the cup in the diswhasher.  Why would I want to make it in the hot chocolate maker, clean all the moving parts AND the cup I poured it into--every day!?!

I banned Christmas gifts the following year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hot chocolate maker!  I didn&#8217;t even know there was such a thing until my in-laws got it for me the Christmas before last.  I do drink hot chocolate every morning&#8211;so they thought they were being clever.  But I make it in the cup I&#8217;m going to drink it from, put it in the microwave, and then then put the cup in the diswhasher.  Why would I want to make it in the hot chocolate maker, clean all the moving parts AND the cup I poured it into&#8211;every day!?!</p>
<p>I banned Christmas gifts the following year.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2008/03/is-cheap-the-new-green.html#comment-632</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Mar 2008 00:59:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2008/03/is-cheap-the-new-green.html#comment-632</guid>
		<description>@steve - Here's a loose calculation
1 gallon of oil = 3.78kg (assuming same density as water)
oil has 800kcal/100g as far as remember.
A cyclist spends 900kcal/hr going 20mph

So 37.8*800/900*20 = 672 mpg

Of course none of these include life cycle costs but neither does the manufacture of the car or the road.

@philip - I don't have the data on water freight but surely someone has researched this. 

@escapee - I think it will be one of necessity. I think we will see 4bd/4bath McMansions converted into multiplexes or condominiums within the next few decades. Also I could see driving the old SUV down to the gas station to fill it up and then driving it home only to siphon off the fuel to the scooter. 

@moneyblogga - Priceless! ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@steve - Here&#8217;s a loose calculation<br />
1 gallon of oil = 3.78kg (assuming same density as water)<br />
oil has 800kcal/100g as far as remember.<br />
A cyclist spends 900kcal/hr going 20mph</p>
<p>So 37.8*800/900*20 = 672 mpg</p>
<p>Of course none of these include life cycle costs but neither does the manufacture of the car or the road.</p>
<p>@philip - I don&#8217;t have the data on water freight but surely someone has researched this. </p>
<p>@escapee - I think it will be one of necessity. I think we will see 4bd/4bath McMansions converted into multiplexes or condominiums within the next few decades. Also I could see driving the old SUV down to the gas station to fill it up and then driving it home only to siphon off the fuel to the scooter. </p>
<p>@moneyblogga - Priceless! <img src='http://earlyretirementextreme.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: MoneyBlogga</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2008/03/is-cheap-the-new-green.html#comment-631</link>
		<dc:creator>MoneyBlogga</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 23:32:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2008/03/is-cheap-the-new-green.html#comment-631</guid>
		<description>It's hip to be green! Which means it's also hip to be cheap! This is what I tell my neighbors in my million dollar (or so) neighborhood when I hang my undies out on the line. "I'm being green". It's true. The neighbors don't need to know that I cannot afford my mortgage. Same with the dishes. No more dishwasher for me. The dishes get washed in the sink. "We're being green!" Same with the heating and air conditioning. The switch is "OFF" for the foreseeable future. Put on your thermals. We're being green! We have no choice but to save money while, at the same time, being green. Funny. This is how my grandmother did things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s hip to be green! Which means it&#8217;s also hip to be cheap! This is what I tell my neighbors in my million dollar (or so) neighborhood when I hang my undies out on the line. &#8220;I&#8217;m being green&#8221;. It&#8217;s true. The neighbors don&#8217;t need to know that I cannot afford my mortgage. Same with the dishes. No more dishwasher for me. The dishes get washed in the sink. &#8220;We&#8217;re being green!&#8221; Same with the heating and air conditioning. The switch is &#8220;OFF&#8221; for the foreseeable future. Put on your thermals. We&#8217;re being green! We have no choice but to save money while, at the same time, being green. Funny. This is how my grandmother did things.</p>
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		<title>By: Philip Brewer</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2008/03/is-cheap-the-new-green.html#comment-630</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip Brewer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 21:08:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2008/03/is-cheap-the-new-green.html#comment-630</guid>
		<description>I tried to crank the numbers on the efficiency of bicycling a while back.

Bicycling is obviously more efficient than most forms of transportation, but I wasn't sure it would beat either sailing or canal barge traffic.  Since you say it beats sailing, I was wondering if you had any data that I could use.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I tried to crank the numbers on the efficiency of bicycling a while back.</p>
<p>Bicycling is obviously more efficient than most forms of transportation, but I wasn&#8217;t sure it would beat either sailing or canal barge traffic.  Since you say it beats sailing, I was wondering if you had any data that I could use.</p>
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		<title>By: Hunter Nuttall</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2008/03/is-cheap-the-new-green.html#comment-624</link>
		<dc:creator>Hunter Nuttall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 19:23:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2008/03/is-cheap-the-new-green.html#comment-624</guid>
		<description>"I get a kick out of being a capitalist. To me they're not just numbers on a statement. It's ownership. It's 200 sqft of a factory, a delivery truck, or a cubicle where things are getting done."

I echo that sentiment!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I get a kick out of being a capitalist. To me they&#8217;re not just numbers on a statement. It&#8217;s ownership. It&#8217;s 200 sqft of a factory, a delivery truck, or a cubicle where things are getting done.&#8221;</p>
<p>I echo that sentiment!</p>
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		<title>By: escapee</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2008/03/is-cheap-the-new-green.html#comment-623</link>
		<dc:creator>escapee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 17:34:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2008/03/is-cheap-the-new-green.html#comment-623</guid>
		<description>I'm hoping that it's going to be more of a cultural awakening (albeit possibly through necessity rather than choice) than a fad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m hoping that it&#8217;s going to be more of a cultural awakening (albeit possibly through necessity rather than choice) than a fad.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Austin</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2008/03/is-cheap-the-new-green.html#comment-619</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Austin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 16:35:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2008/03/is-cheap-the-new-green.html#comment-619</guid>
		<description>That 1959 Opel T-1 is fabulous -- quickly fills a particular part of my body with lots of blood.

I like the Souped Down image.  I have regularly attempted to do that to any piece of machinery I have ever ridden or driven.

I like the chain drive shown on the Opel, and I was thinking about bicycle power transmission yesterday while riding.  The efficiency of a bicycle is quite tangible when one is at a stop light with a line of cars.  When the light turns green, your foot can immediately transmit power into forward travel, and that delay for the cars to accelerate past you is glaring.

By the way, where/how did you get that figure of 650 MPG for a bicycle?  I'm a mechanical engineer by education (not profession) so I want the calculation.  ;-\</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That 1959 Opel T-1 is fabulous &#8212; quickly fills a particular part of my body with lots of blood.</p>
<p>I like the Souped Down image.  I have regularly attempted to do that to any piece of machinery I have ever ridden or driven.</p>
<p>I like the chain drive shown on the Opel, and I was thinking about bicycle power transmission yesterday while riding.  The efficiency of a bicycle is quite tangible when one is at a stop light with a line of cars.  When the light turns green, your foot can immediately transmit power into forward travel, and that delay for the cars to accelerate past you is glaring.</p>
<p>By the way, where/how did you get that figure of 650 MPG for a bicycle?  I&#8217;m a mechanical engineer by education (not profession) so I want the calculation.  ;-\</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Austin</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2008/03/is-cheap-the-new-green.html#comment-618</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Austin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 16:26:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2008/03/is-cheap-the-new-green.html#comment-618</guid>
		<description>It's been a while since I read YMoYL, but vaguely recall Dominguez-Robin addressing the cheap/frugal distinction.  Or maybe I'm conflating this from other sources:  cheap is about price; frugal is about value (of which price is a component).

I'm having trouble seeing how frugal can be hip.  I don't think I'd want it to be, as hip is fickle.  In my limited understanding of hip and fads, there is a central element of either aesthetics or moral righteousness, even rebellion in some cases.  I suppose the Absence of Things could be seen as some sort of Zen or Taoist Minimalist Aesthetic, but popular trends seem to focus around the Presence of Things, don't they?  And what about moral righteousness?  When green is no longer some personal choice but a matter of survival, then it won't be a trend.  I think green is a nice side effect of frugal, but it is not the central point.  And then what about rebellion?  I have to admit that for me (a contrarian) it did in part start due to the attractiveness of saying "Screw the Man, I'm going to do what most people complain 'just can't be done'."  But after one does what can't be done, what then?  Well, you keep on going and you recognize that frugality is about nothing more than the financial bottom line:  getting as much value as you can for as little cost as possible.  Nothing more, nothing less, just the cold hard figures.  Accountants aren't hip, or are they?  When was the last time that green eyeshades were trendy?  ;-\</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s been a while since I read YMoYL, but vaguely recall Dominguez-Robin addressing the cheap/frugal distinction.  Or maybe I&#8217;m conflating this from other sources:  cheap is about price; frugal is about value (of which price is a component).</p>
<p>I&#8217;m having trouble seeing how frugal can be hip.  I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;d want it to be, as hip is fickle.  In my limited understanding of hip and fads, there is a central element of either aesthetics or moral righteousness, even rebellion in some cases.  I suppose the Absence of Things could be seen as some sort of Zen or Taoist Minimalist Aesthetic, but popular trends seem to focus around the Presence of Things, don&#8217;t they?  And what about moral righteousness?  When green is no longer some personal choice but a matter of survival, then it won&#8217;t be a trend.  I think green is a nice side effect of frugal, but it is not the central point.  And then what about rebellion?  I have to admit that for me (a contrarian) it did in part start due to the attractiveness of saying &#8220;Screw the Man, I&#8217;m going to do what most people complain &#8216;just can&#8217;t be done&#8217;.&#8221;  But after one does what can&#8217;t be done, what then?  Well, you keep on going and you recognize that frugality is about nothing more than the financial bottom line:  getting as much value as you can for as little cost as possible.  Nothing more, nothing less, just the cold hard figures.  Accountants aren&#8217;t hip, or are they?  When was the last time that green eyeshades were trendy?  ;-\</p>
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