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	<title>Comments on: The vehicle dependent mindset</title>
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	<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2008/05/the-vehicle-dependent-mindset.html</link>
	<description>Financial independence, frugality, self-sufficiency, ecology, capitalism, and voluntary simplicity</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 07:05:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: ambyr</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2008/05/the-vehicle-dependent-mindset.html/comment-page-1#comment-1258</link>
		<dc:creator>ambyr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 22:07:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=232#comment-1258</guid>
		<description>Ouch. It hurts a bit to hear that your wife manages to car commute for $2500 a year; my public transit commute comes in around $2300 annually.

Even at that price tag, I think it's worth not owning a car, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ouch. It hurts a bit to hear that your wife manages to car commute for $2500 a year; my public transit commute comes in around $2300 annually.</p>
<p>Even at that price tag, I think it&#8217;s worth not owning a car, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Debbie M</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2008/05/the-vehicle-dependent-mindset.html/comment-page-1#comment-1257</link>
		<dc:creator>Debbie M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 21:36:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=232#comment-1257</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Sid.  $6000 per year?  So I'm spending 40% of the average.  I thought I was spending more like 20% of the average.  That's good to know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Sid.  $6000 per year?  So I&#8217;m spending 40% of the average.  I thought I was spending more like 20% of the average.  That&#8217;s good to know.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob in  Madrid</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2008/05/the-vehicle-dependent-mindset.html/comment-page-1#comment-1255</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob in  Madrid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 20:24:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=232#comment-1255</guid>
		<description>I've been carless for two weeks after mine got impounded (long story)and we are debating getting rid of it all together. My Wife bikes to work every day (no need for a second car) and I can get everywhere by public transport. 

That's not the problem, as Kevin pointed out, it's the weekends,  the lack of flexibity I miss. I had to cancel on some plans becuase I wasn't will to spend another 2 hours on the metro (1 hour each way) on the metro. So far we're coping by renting a car on the weekend and cost wise it's working out ok.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been carless for two weeks after mine got impounded (long story)and we are debating getting rid of it all together. My Wife bikes to work every day (no need for a second car) and I can get everywhere by public transport. </p>
<p>That&#8217;s not the problem, as Kevin pointed out, it&#8217;s the weekends,  the lack of flexibity I miss. I had to cancel on some plans becuase I wasn&#8217;t will to spend another 2 hours on the metro (1 hour each way) on the metro. So far we&#8217;re coping by renting a car on the weekend and cost wise it&#8217;s working out ok.</p>
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		<title>By: Adfecto</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2008/05/the-vehicle-dependent-mindset.html/comment-page-1#comment-1254</link>
		<dc:creator>Adfecto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 16:49:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=232#comment-1254</guid>
		<description>I operate a two car household with each car running an average of $400 a month (including insurance, taxes, fuel, maintenance, and acquisition costs).  Yup, I spend more in a year on my cars than Jacob probably spends on his whole lifestyle.  Ouch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I operate a two car household with each car running an average of $400 a month (including insurance, taxes, fuel, maintenance, and acquisition costs).  Yup, I spend more in a year on my cars than Jacob probably spends on his whole lifestyle.  Ouch.</p>
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		<title>By: Hannah</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2008/05/the-vehicle-dependent-mindset.html/comment-page-1#comment-1250</link>
		<dc:creator>Hannah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 06:04:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=232#comment-1250</guid>
		<description>Jacob,

You are technically right (as usual!) about one not really *needing* a car. We don't *need* a lot of things. And I admire your ability to match your actions with your rational thoughts, in order to achieve a certain financial goal. You live in strict accordance with your reason.

But I am starting to gradually realize the extent to which we live in an irrational society. Nay, world. I think most human beings (the extroverted, aggressive, non-INTJ majority) are irrational. They mimic other people, and those other people in turn mimic the rich and/or advertising: it's one big mess. People will drive cars as long as other people drive cars... to fit in and be seen as "normal." In the US for example, consumption is the only way to express yourself in a way that is "socially acceptable." People talk about what cars they bought, or how they are redecorating the backyard, and this is a part of everyday mindless small talk. But in mainstream society, it is taboo to talk about existential matters: why are we alive, what are we doing with our time, what is the purpose of this short time we have before we are worm food??? These are the things that tap into our emotional and spiritual cores. If man really had his best interests at heart (aka was "rational") then he would seek to address his spiritual and emotional needs as well as his physical ones.

But no.

The physical ones are taken cared of (food, shelter, etc.) But instead of turning attention to the other needs, we have evolved into a creature-comforts FETISHIZING advertising culture. It's disgusting. Essentially all of marketing is about how to: decorate the physical body, decorate the home, decorate the car, decorate, decorate, decorate. Everything except decorating the soul and the mind. In the pursuit of things, we have become a "thing" as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jacob,</p>
<p>You are technically right (as usual!) about one not really *needing* a car. We don&#8217;t *need* a lot of things. And I admire your ability to match your actions with your rational thoughts, in order to achieve a certain financial goal. You live in strict accordance with your reason.</p>
<p>But I am starting to gradually realize the extent to which we live in an irrational society. Nay, world. I think most human beings (the extroverted, aggressive, non-INTJ majority) are irrational. They mimic other people, and those other people in turn mimic the rich and/or advertising: it&#8217;s one big mess. People will drive cars as long as other people drive cars&#8230; to fit in and be seen as &#8220;normal.&#8221; In the US for example, consumption is the only way to express yourself in a way that is &#8220;socially acceptable.&#8221; People talk about what cars they bought, or how they are redecorating the backyard, and this is a part of everyday mindless small talk. But in mainstream society, it is taboo to talk about existential matters: why are we alive, what are we doing with our time, what is the purpose of this short time we have before we are worm food??? These are the things that tap into our emotional and spiritual cores. If man really had his best interests at heart (aka was &#8220;rational&#8221;) then he would seek to address his spiritual and emotional needs as well as his physical ones.</p>
<p>But no.</p>
<p>The physical ones are taken cared of (food, shelter, etc.) But instead of turning attention to the other needs, we have evolved into a creature-comforts FETISHIZING advertising culture. It&#8217;s disgusting. Essentially all of marketing is about how to: decorate the physical body, decorate the home, decorate the car, decorate, decorate, decorate. Everything except decorating the soul and the mind. In the pursuit of things, we have become a &#8220;thing&#8221; as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2008/05/the-vehicle-dependent-mindset.html/comment-page-1#comment-1245</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 18:59:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=232#comment-1245</guid>
		<description>I have spent several years as a student with either no car or a breakdown-prone car.  It is very doable.  A lot of trips can be replaced with internet usage: shopping, entertainment, news, etc.  A few more can be done by mail; e.g. Netflix, vote by mail.  Nearly everything can be done this way but it requires more planning.

It really helps to have all routine services within a comfortable walk: work, grocery, laundry, any other necessities.  In many cases rent is more expensive in ideal places, but it is usually worth it.  The no-car savings are greater than the premium on rent.

The biggest challenge is non-routine trips: pick up something on Freecycle, visit a friend, go to the doctor, report for jury duty, get to the airport, and so on.  You need contingency plans for these things.  Between taxis, a bicycle, and the bus you can cover most of your bases.  If you can walk to a car rental agency or train station, much better.  The per-trip charges can become a deterrent against doing anything, so you have to keep them in perspective.  Many of them are comparable to the roughly $.50/mile figure the AAA and IRS have published separately.

You can also compromise and keep an old car that has fully depreciated and only use it for these exceptional trips.  The per-mile costs approach 0 and you have a failsafe.  You could get a big truck to transport things like used desks.  Miles per gallon is irrelevant when you drive 20 miles a month.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have spent several years as a student with either no car or a breakdown-prone car.  It is very doable.  A lot of trips can be replaced with internet usage: shopping, entertainment, news, etc.  A few more can be done by mail; e.g. Netflix, vote by mail.  Nearly everything can be done this way but it requires more planning.</p>
<p>It really helps to have all routine services within a comfortable walk: work, grocery, laundry, any other necessities.  In many cases rent is more expensive in ideal places, but it is usually worth it.  The no-car savings are greater than the premium on rent.</p>
<p>The biggest challenge is non-routine trips: pick up something on Freecycle, visit a friend, go to the doctor, report for jury duty, get to the airport, and so on.  You need contingency plans for these things.  Between taxis, a bicycle, and the bus you can cover most of your bases.  If you can walk to a car rental agency or train station, much better.  The per-trip charges can become a deterrent against doing anything, so you have to keep them in perspective.  Many of them are comparable to the roughly $.50/mile figure the AAA and IRS have published separately.</p>
<p>You can also compromise and keep an old car that has fully depreciated and only use it for these exceptional trips.  The per-mile costs approach 0 and you have a failsafe.  You could get a big truck to transport things like used desks.  Miles per gallon is irrelevant when you drive 20 miles a month.</p>
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		<title>By: mjukr</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2008/05/the-vehicle-dependent-mindset.html/comment-page-1#comment-1244</link>
		<dc:creator>mjukr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 18:47:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=232#comment-1244</guid>
		<description>For people with children who live in cities with poor (or no) public transportation, I think shooting for having only one car is a more realistic goal. 

For me, having a car is a necessity for two reasons:
1) I live too far from work to walk/bike (not to mention the uncooperative climate here). I work downtown; I have lived downtown in the past but it is detrimental to my health due to noise, crime, etc. Just not a suitable environment for me. I need peace and quiet and distance from neighbors or I go a little nuts.

2) I suffer from severe motion sickness. Sometimes I even have trouble walking straight! A ten-minute bus ride is a nightmare for me. For some reason I am unaffected when driving myself.

So, to offset the "need"[0] for a car, I drive a reliable, 13-year-old sedan that requires very little maintenance cost and gets great mileage.

[0] Sure, "need" is relative. Let's just say I'm not willing to make the necessary sacrifices (i.e. moving downtown or buying vertigo medicine...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For people with children who live in cities with poor (or no) public transportation, I think shooting for having only one car is a more realistic goal. </p>
<p>For me, having a car is a necessity for two reasons:<br />
1) I live too far from work to walk/bike (not to mention the uncooperative climate here). I work downtown; I have lived downtown in the past but it is detrimental to my health due to noise, crime, etc. Just not a suitable environment for me. I need peace and quiet and distance from neighbors or I go a little nuts.</p>
<p>2) I suffer from severe motion sickness. Sometimes I even have trouble walking straight! A ten-minute bus ride is a nightmare for me. For some reason I am unaffected when driving myself.</p>
<p>So, to offset the &#8220;need&#8221;[0] for a car, I drive a reliable, 13-year-old sedan that requires very little maintenance cost and gets great mileage.</p>
<p>[0] Sure, &#8220;need&#8221; is relative. Let&#8217;s just say I&#8217;m not willing to make the necessary sacrifices (i.e. moving downtown or buying vertigo medicine&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: Sid</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2008/05/the-vehicle-dependent-mindset.html/comment-page-1#comment-1242</link>
		<dc:creator>Sid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 15:18:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=232#comment-1242</guid>
		<description>Just read &lt;a href="http://www.amazon.com/How-Live-Well-Without-Owning/dp/1580087574" rel="nofollow"&gt;this book&lt;/a&gt; recently and it had typical car costs in the $6,000/year range ($8,000/year if you own an SUV). This includes oil changes, maintenance, repairs, and a huge list of other small incremental costs related to owning a car and its lifestyle (e.g. registration and inspection, cleaning, fluids).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just read <a href="http://www.amazon.com/How-Live-Well-Without-Owning/dp/1580087574" rel="nofollow">this book</a> recently and it had typical car costs in the $6,000/year range ($8,000/year if you own an SUV). This includes oil changes, maintenance, repairs, and a huge list of other small incremental costs related to owning a car and its lifestyle (e.g. registration and inspection, cleaning, fluids).</p>
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		<title>By: Debbie M</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2008/05/the-vehicle-dependent-mindset.html/comment-page-1#comment-1240</link>
		<dc:creator>Debbie M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 14:56:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=232#comment-1240</guid>
		<description>I went without a car for four years in a city with mediocre mass transportation.

I took a bus to work.

I walked to or took a bus to buy groceries.  I considered grocery shopping to be my aerobic activity for the day.  I put the heavy stuff in my backpack and carried the light stuff in a paper bag.  Yes, this was in the olden days before plastic bags and before it occurred to me to bring my own bags.

I took a bus to do laundry.  (It's good to put a towel across the top of your laundry basket so your undies aren't so visible.)

Whenever I wanted to visit my parents (a four-hour drive away), I would rent a car.  There are two kinds of rental car places: 1) the kinds in airports geared toward people who have cars but are traveling and 2) the other kind, geared toward people who have cars that are in the shop.  The latter is better equipped to serve the carless.

I had a friend who would lend me his car when he went out of town in return for using it to drive him to and from the airport.  I used that car to load up on big, heavy things I'd been wanting to buy, and occasionally I'd rent a car for a weekend for that sort of thing.  I also once took a taxi home from a place where I bought a TV (that was expensive!!).

My only real problem was parties.  Back then I could still get to most of my friends' houses on the bus, but the buses would quit running long before I was ready to leave the party.  I could always find people to give me rides back, but none of them would let me pay them with money or in any other way, even if I was out of their way.  I didn't like that.  And now half of my friends live out in the suburbs where I couldn't get to them at all.

So, now I have a car.  However, I buy ten-year-old cars of reliable makes and keep them until they die--so far about ten additional years.  I don't get collision insurance.  And I still don't drive to work (or much at all--I fill the tank once a month or less).  I have kept good records--this costs me $150/month (including gas, insurance, upkeep, and repairs) plus I save $50/month toward the next car.  So my cost is $2400/year.

So, do I only use my car for parties?  No.  I also drive it to dance lessons and ultimate frisbee games and, I admit it, I use it to go grocery shopping.  (I now have my own washer, so don't leave the house to do laundry.)

On the other hand, I also lend it to people whose cars are in the shop (both my boyfriend and my sister have borrowed my car many times).  And whenever my boyfriend and I go anywhere together, I drive because I have better gas mileage (and create less pollution).  So, given my current circumstances, I much prefer having a car, for $200/month, than not having one.

I would rather go without a car, though, than to buy a new one every five to seven years and have to buy comprehensive insurance (and freak out about every little dent on the outside of the car and every little crumb on the inside).  I suspect that would cost me three to four times as much as my current strategy does.

I have one additional piece of advice if you go without a car.  Get yourself added to someone's car insurance.  I know if that person is in your household, and they indicate that you will be driving only 1% of the time, that probably won't cost them any extra.  If you have to use a friend or relative who lives elsewhere, I'm not sure how that works out.

But it's very good to have car insurance in this society.  1) It's there for you when you rent cars.  2) It's there for you if you borrow someone else's car or drive home a drunk friend in their car.  It just gives you more flexibility.  3) If you ever decide you want a car again, or you get a job with a company car, you won't get penalized for not having had insurance.  It's true, they penalize you for not having insurance even if you didn't own a car or have access to one.  People are just not rational about cars in this society.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I went without a car for four years in a city with mediocre mass transportation.</p>
<p>I took a bus to work.</p>
<p>I walked to or took a bus to buy groceries.  I considered grocery shopping to be my aerobic activity for the day.  I put the heavy stuff in my backpack and carried the light stuff in a paper bag.  Yes, this was in the olden days before plastic bags and before it occurred to me to bring my own bags.</p>
<p>I took a bus to do laundry.  (It&#8217;s good to put a towel across the top of your laundry basket so your undies aren&#8217;t so visible.)</p>
<p>Whenever I wanted to visit my parents (a four-hour drive away), I would rent a car.  There are two kinds of rental car places: 1) the kinds in airports geared toward people who have cars but are traveling and 2) the other kind, geared toward people who have cars that are in the shop.  The latter is better equipped to serve the carless.</p>
<p>I had a friend who would lend me his car when he went out of town in return for using it to drive him to and from the airport.  I used that car to load up on big, heavy things I&#8217;d been wanting to buy, and occasionally I&#8217;d rent a car for a weekend for that sort of thing.  I also once took a taxi home from a place where I bought a TV (that was expensive!!).</p>
<p>My only real problem was parties.  Back then I could still get to most of my friends&#8217; houses on the bus, but the buses would quit running long before I was ready to leave the party.  I could always find people to give me rides back, but none of them would let me pay them with money or in any other way, even if I was out of their way.  I didn&#8217;t like that.  And now half of my friends live out in the suburbs where I couldn&#8217;t get to them at all.</p>
<p>So, now I have a car.  However, I buy ten-year-old cars of reliable makes and keep them until they die&#8211;so far about ten additional years.  I don&#8217;t get collision insurance.  And I still don&#8217;t drive to work (or much at all&#8211;I fill the tank once a month or less).  I have kept good records&#8211;this costs me $150/month (including gas, insurance, upkeep, and repairs) plus I save $50/month toward the next car.  So my cost is $2400/year.</p>
<p>So, do I only use my car for parties?  No.  I also drive it to dance lessons and ultimate frisbee games and, I admit it, I use it to go grocery shopping.  (I now have my own washer, so don&#8217;t leave the house to do laundry.)</p>
<p>On the other hand, I also lend it to people whose cars are in the shop (both my boyfriend and my sister have borrowed my car many times).  And whenever my boyfriend and I go anywhere together, I drive because I have better gas mileage (and create less pollution).  So, given my current circumstances, I much prefer having a car, for $200/month, than not having one.</p>
<p>I would rather go without a car, though, than to buy a new one every five to seven years and have to buy comprehensive insurance (and freak out about every little dent on the outside of the car and every little crumb on the inside).  I suspect that would cost me three to four times as much as my current strategy does.</p>
<p>I have one additional piece of advice if you go without a car.  Get yourself added to someone&#8217;s car insurance.  I know if that person is in your household, and they indicate that you will be driving only 1% of the time, that probably won&#8217;t cost them any extra.  If you have to use a friend or relative who lives elsewhere, I&#8217;m not sure how that works out.</p>
<p>But it&#8217;s very good to have car insurance in this society.  1) It&#8217;s there for you when you rent cars.  2) It&#8217;s there for you if you borrow someone else&#8217;s car or drive home a drunk friend in their car.  It just gives you more flexibility.  3) If you ever decide you want a car again, or you get a job with a company car, you won&#8217;t get penalized for not having had insurance.  It&#8217;s true, they penalize you for not having insurance even if you didn&#8217;t own a car or have access to one.  People are just not rational about cars in this society.</p>
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		<title>By: MInTheGap</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2008/05/the-vehicle-dependent-mindset.html/comment-page-1#comment-1238</link>
		<dc:creator>MInTheGap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 14:32:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=232#comment-1238</guid>
		<description>Well, I carpool to and from work with a person that's already driving in, but whereas I could see this being a viable option for a couple of adults without children, I'd like to see how you would get this to work with three children under 5.

You could get two child seats, but safety becomes an issue (three seats or something you're pulling, plus groceries seems unworkable).

If you choose the bus route, you still have some walking to do, wrangling children on a bus perhaps without restraints, and then having to watch them plus the groceries or things that you brought-- it just seems unworkable with small children.

Don't get me wrong-- laudable goal, and those that live far away from work end up paying for it, but small children make a vehicle practically a necessity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I carpool to and from work with a person that&#8217;s already driving in, but whereas I could see this being a viable option for a couple of adults without children, I&#8217;d like to see how you would get this to work with three children under 5.</p>
<p>You could get two child seats, but safety becomes an issue (three seats or something you&#8217;re pulling, plus groceries seems unworkable).</p>
<p>If you choose the bus route, you still have some walking to do, wrangling children on a bus perhaps without restraints, and then having to watch them plus the groceries or things that you brought&#8211; it just seems unworkable with small children.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t get me wrong&#8211; laudable goal, and those that live far away from work end up paying for it, but small children make a vehicle practically a necessity.</p>
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