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	<title>Comments on: How I would get out of debt (if I had any)</title>
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	<description>Becoming debt-free is the first step to building a better world. Financial independence is the second. Doing what YOU want is the third.</description>
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		<title>By: mysteryte</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/how-i-would-get-out-of-debt-if-i-had-any.html/comment-page-1#comment-20196</link>
		<dc:creator>mysteryte</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Dec 2010 16:00:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=383#comment-20196</guid>
		<description>I also concur with HSpencer (and Kevin M on electronic payment timing), but add one more caveat -- also don&#039;t try this if you might be prone to letting the points/cashback give you an excuse to spend more than you otherwise would. Eg you have to be sure you can restrain yourself to only using it for that which you were going to buy anyways.

I&#039;m *pretty good* about this, but not perfect :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also concur with HSpencer (and Kevin M on electronic payment timing), but add one more caveat &#8212; also don&#8217;t try this if you might be prone to letting the points/cashback give you an excuse to spend more than you otherwise would. Eg you have to be sure you can restrain yourself to only using it for that which you were going to buy anyways.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m *pretty good* about this, but not perfect <img src='http://earlyretirementextreme.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Kevin M</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/how-i-would-get-out-of-debt-if-i-had-any.html/comment-page-1#comment-20160</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Dec 2010 15:07:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=383#comment-20160</guid>
		<description>Re: Credit Cards
What HSpencer said, but upon receiving the bill (electronically, I don&#039;t want my account # floating around in the mail) I immediately schedule a payment on the day before the due date. I keep the balance in an online savings account so I get a little extra interest during the grace period.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Credit Cards<br />
What HSpencer said, but upon receiving the bill (electronically, I don&#8217;t want my account # floating around in the mail) I immediately schedule a payment on the day before the due date. I keep the balance in an online savings account so I get a little extra interest during the grace period.</p>
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		<title>By: Britz</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/how-i-would-get-out-of-debt-if-i-had-any.html/comment-page-1#comment-20150</link>
		<dc:creator>Britz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Dec 2010 11:56:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=383#comment-20150</guid>
		<description>I was too tired and rambled on in my previous comment above, so my main message got a bit buried, so here it is again: 

Although it is a vital rule of thumb to avoid debts, it is worth doing the actual calculations, because you can sometimes save money, time, and freedom (or whatever) by assuming debts and even mortgages, rather than save up. Not often, but sometimes, especially if you repay the debt quickly and/or if there is an exceptionally good investment opportunity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was too tired and rambled on in my previous comment above, so my main message got a bit buried, so here it is again: </p>
<p>Although it is a vital rule of thumb to avoid debts, it is worth doing the actual calculations, because you can sometimes save money, time, and freedom (or whatever) by assuming debts and even mortgages, rather than save up. Not often, but sometimes, especially if you repay the debt quickly and/or if there is an exceptionally good investment opportunity.</p>
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		<title>By: deegee</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/how-i-would-get-out-of-debt-if-i-had-any.html/comment-page-1#comment-20148</link>
		<dc:creator>deegee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Dec 2010 06:16:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=383#comment-20148</guid>
		<description>HSpencer and Josh, I live just down the street from the bank which handles my CC.  Most of the time, I simply walk to the bank and pay it in person, or I drive there on the way to doing other local errands.  I don&#039;t have to rely on the post office or worry about the bank misplacing my payment and claiming I did not pay it on time.

The cash-back thing does not concern me because I use my CC so rarely.  I charged $655 in 2010 and $229 in 2009.  I received a CC bill in only 10 of the 24 months, so paying a CC bill is a somewhat uncommon event for me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>HSpencer and Josh, I live just down the street from the bank which handles my CC.  Most of the time, I simply walk to the bank and pay it in person, or I drive there on the way to doing other local errands.  I don&#8217;t have to rely on the post office or worry about the bank misplacing my payment and claiming I did not pay it on time.</p>
<p>The cash-back thing does not concern me because I use my CC so rarely.  I charged $655 in 2010 and $229 in 2009.  I received a CC bill in only 10 of the 24 months, so paying a CC bill is a somewhat uncommon event for me.</p>
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		<title>By: DC Waffler</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/how-i-would-get-out-of-debt-if-i-had-any.html/comment-page-1#comment-20143</link>
		<dc:creator>DC Waffler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Dec 2010 02:35:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=383#comment-20143</guid>
		<description>My experience with credit card debt was several years back, when I had to quit my job until my immigration papers were renewed. My lawyers knew how long it normally took, but no one knew it would take as long it actually did. I had only been out of grad school two years at that point, was focused on paying down my student loans, so didn&#039;t have much in savings yet.  

  In preparation, I used some ERE tactics to reduce housing and transportation costs.  I requested deferral of my student loans. I started hoarding cash.  I also put as much of my remaining expenses as I could on my credit cards and made minimum payments.  

  Why did I get in credit card debt when I was unemployed? I only had about $5000 in cash, my COBRA payments alone were $300/month and I couldn&#039;t legally get another job. The  credit cards helped me stretch my cash. 

Once I started working again 6 months later, I had the CC debt, the student loans, and also owed my attorneys ($$ due when my application was approved).  The feeling I had towards my creditors was gratitude.  I had access to their cash when I needed it,and they made money off me.  

I owed a total of ~$30k and I was making $32k.  I managed to pay everyone off in a little over a year, which should give you an idea of how focused I was on debt repayment.

In my opinion, debt is neither moral nor immoral (*), but rather a useful tool.   Like many tools, e.g., cars, prescription drugs, scissors, classified information, dogs or guns, debt can harm you when misused. Don&#039;t make accruing debt a lifestyle, but use it if you have to.  If you are already in debt, develop a plan for getting out of debt.  Use whatever motivates you, whether it be guilt, gratitude or a dispassionate spreadsheet.

(*) I&#039;m paraphrasing Steve Austin&#039;s comment on taxes from the previous article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My experience with credit card debt was several years back, when I had to quit my job until my immigration papers were renewed. My lawyers knew how long it normally took, but no one knew it would take as long it actually did. I had only been out of grad school two years at that point, was focused on paying down my student loans, so didn&#8217;t have much in savings yet.  </p>
<p>  In preparation, I used some ERE tactics to reduce housing and transportation costs.  I requested deferral of my student loans. I started hoarding cash.  I also put as much of my remaining expenses as I could on my credit cards and made minimum payments.  </p>
<p>  Why did I get in credit card debt when I was unemployed? I only had about $5000 in cash, my COBRA payments alone were $300/month and I couldn&#8217;t legally get another job. The  credit cards helped me stretch my cash. </p>
<p>Once I started working again 6 months later, I had the CC debt, the student loans, and also owed my attorneys ($$ due when my application was approved).  The feeling I had towards my creditors was gratitude.  I had access to their cash when I needed it,and they made money off me.  </p>
<p>I owed a total of ~$30k and I was making $32k.  I managed to pay everyone off in a little over a year, which should give you an idea of how focused I was on debt repayment.</p>
<p>In my opinion, debt is neither moral nor immoral (*), but rather a useful tool.   Like many tools, e.g., cars, prescription drugs, scissors, classified information, dogs or guns, debt can harm you when misused. Don&#8217;t make accruing debt a lifestyle, but use it if you have to.  If you are already in debt, develop a plan for getting out of debt.  Use whatever motivates you, whether it be guilt, gratitude or a dispassionate spreadsheet.</p>
<p>(*) I&#8217;m paraphrasing Steve Austin&#8217;s comment on taxes from the previous article.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/how-i-would-get-out-of-debt-if-i-had-any.html/comment-page-1#comment-20142</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Dec 2010 23:28:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=383#comment-20142</guid>
		<description>@HSpencer I completely agree with you, except I use online bill payment instead.  Saves me a stamp/check/and gas/mileage from going to the post office and back.  I think this is more of a generational thing though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@HSpencer I completely agree with you, except I use online bill payment instead.  Saves me a stamp/check/and gas/mileage from going to the post office and back.  I think this is more of a generational thing though.</p>
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		<title>By: HSpencer</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/how-i-would-get-out-of-debt-if-i-had-any.html/comment-page-1#comment-20140</link>
		<dc:creator>HSpencer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Dec 2010 18:48:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=383#comment-20140</guid>
		<description>Use a credit card and never be in debt.  Carefully calculate your grace period on the month.  Do it thoroughly and carefully.  You charge whatever you decide.  You know the cut off date on that period.  You know the approximate date your statement will arrive in the mail.  (My date is nearly always the 25th of the month).

Now the magic happens:

You go to the mail box and pull out your statement.  You go home (directly home and do not pass go and do not collect $200.00).

In your house, you IMMEDIATELY sit down at your desk and write a check for the FULL amount on your credit card statement.  You seal the statement in the provided envelope and add a stamp.  (You shred the three blank checks they send with the statement, you DO NOT want these laying around.)

You get back in your ride and take the sealed and stamped statement/full payment back to the post office and drop in the mail.  You double check everything---stamp, return address, all that stuff--double check it.

You walk away knowing the credit card company works for you instead of the other way around. You know you have a free accountant on your side.  The only payment the free accountant gets from you is YOU ARE NEVER, NO NOT EVER late on your part of the deal.

And you get a pittance back--1%  (I currently have about $450.00 in my &quot;cash back&quot; column.

I you cannot do the above, then have NO cards.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Use a credit card and never be in debt.  Carefully calculate your grace period on the month.  Do it thoroughly and carefully.  You charge whatever you decide.  You know the cut off date on that period.  You know the approximate date your statement will arrive in the mail.  (My date is nearly always the 25th of the month).</p>
<p>Now the magic happens:</p>
<p>You go to the mail box and pull out your statement.  You go home (directly home and do not pass go and do not collect $200.00).</p>
<p>In your house, you IMMEDIATELY sit down at your desk and write a check for the FULL amount on your credit card statement.  You seal the statement in the provided envelope and add a stamp.  (You shred the three blank checks they send with the statement, you DO NOT want these laying around.)</p>
<p>You get back in your ride and take the sealed and stamped statement/full payment back to the post office and drop in the mail.  You double check everything&#8212;stamp, return address, all that stuff&#8211;double check it.</p>
<p>You walk away knowing the credit card company works for you instead of the other way around. You know you have a free accountant on your side.  The only payment the free accountant gets from you is YOU ARE NEVER, NO NOT EVER late on your part of the deal.</p>
<p>And you get a pittance back&#8211;1%  (I currently have about $450.00 in my &#8220;cash back&#8221; column.</p>
<p>I you cannot do the above, then have NO cards.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob @ My Personal Finance Journey</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/how-i-would-get-out-of-debt-if-i-had-any.html/comment-page-1#comment-20139</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob @ My Personal Finance Journey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Dec 2010 17:15:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=383#comment-20139</guid>
		<description>Does something like a home mortgage loan count as bad debt to have as well? Thanks for your help!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does something like a home mortgage loan count as bad debt to have as well? Thanks for your help!</p>
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		<title>By: krantcents</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/how-i-would-get-out-of-debt-if-i-had-any.html/comment-page-1#comment-20138</link>
		<dc:creator>krantcents</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Dec 2010 16:23:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=383#comment-20138</guid>
		<description>Eight years ago, I refinanced my home with a 5%, 15 year mortgage.  I wanted to have it paid off when I retired in 6.5 years.  Last year, I called the bank and increased the payment to  pay it off by 6/2017. Taking control of your finances has benefits!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eight years ago, I refinanced my home with a 5%, 15 year mortgage.  I wanted to have it paid off when I retired in 6.5 years.  Last year, I called the bank and increased the payment to  pay it off by 6/2017. Taking control of your finances has benefits!</p>
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		<title>By: Britz</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/how-i-would-get-out-of-debt-if-i-had-any.html/comment-page-1#comment-20137</link>
		<dc:creator>Britz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Dec 2010 12:37:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=383#comment-20137</guid>
		<description>Long ago, I bought an apartment just before I started studying, mainly from the slightly vague notion that it would be a better deal to pay off mortgage than to throw away rent-money. I would be locking myself into frugality and side-jobs but would be forced to &quot;save up&quot; by paying off on the apartment, and even though I could have lived more cheaply on rent, I would not have the same pressure to save up, especially since I would be living very cheaply in either case. I was naive and didn&#039;t make any actual calculations but worked hard to avoid any student debt and, after 10 years, ended up selling the apartment with a nice profit. 

Similarly when my wife got an offer to do her phd here in Sydney, I immediately supported this idea, from the viewpoint of it being a good investment (financially and personally), even though my own career might suffer temporarily and we would be chewing through our savings. This also turned out luckily, and after four months of minding our first kid, I got postdoc work here, my wife got her phd and then a postdoc, and now we both work in good jobs that we each enjoy and that are wel-paying, and with a little luck, we will both have tenure in a year&#039;s time. 

We have also tried to save up whenever we could, and this is yet another sort of investment, in delaying resource-use now in order to increase future possible usage. Yet another type of investment is buying stuff in bulk and on crash-sale, which can sometimes be a good idea even if you&#039;re in debt. 

In other words, I like the idea of investments, and they have worked out well (except for my stupid and not-to-be repeated forays into stocks ;) ). 

At the same time, however, I am very much against debt and have always strived hard to avoid it. My attitude has almost always been to save up and buy, rather than to spend and pay off, and I have for years wondered at people buying expensive houses on mortgages (that I put buying my apartment back then to young cluelessness - and a lot of luck in that it turned out well).

I was therefore quite surprised the other week to discover that saving up for a house is not always the cheapest strategy, nor the freest. 
I had finally gotten my act together after all these years and spent 15min. writing a simple computer routine to calculate just how expensive it would be to save up X number of year while renting and then buy a house with the remaining mortgage to pay off. 
It turns out that if you can pay off a full mortgage in a short amount of time (typically 6-7 years but dependant on the prices, income, savings rate etc.), then you will end up paying more in rent than in mortage interest.
Shocking! I&#039;d expected the saving-method to be a clear winner in all but extreme cases. You might be bound for those 6-7 years but this lack of freedom would be offset by the freedom to live on your own terms, rather than potentially being kicked out by successive landlords. (Personally, if I were to buy a house, then I&#039;d save up at least 25% even it were more expensive in the long run, just for financial insurance.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Long ago, I bought an apartment just before I started studying, mainly from the slightly vague notion that it would be a better deal to pay off mortgage than to throw away rent-money. I would be locking myself into frugality and side-jobs but would be forced to &#8220;save up&#8221; by paying off on the apartment, and even though I could have lived more cheaply on rent, I would not have the same pressure to save up, especially since I would be living very cheaply in either case. I was naive and didn&#8217;t make any actual calculations but worked hard to avoid any student debt and, after 10 years, ended up selling the apartment with a nice profit. </p>
<p>Similarly when my wife got an offer to do her phd here in Sydney, I immediately supported this idea, from the viewpoint of it being a good investment (financially and personally), even though my own career might suffer temporarily and we would be chewing through our savings. This also turned out luckily, and after four months of minding our first kid, I got postdoc work here, my wife got her phd and then a postdoc, and now we both work in good jobs that we each enjoy and that are wel-paying, and with a little luck, we will both have tenure in a year&#8217;s time. </p>
<p>We have also tried to save up whenever we could, and this is yet another sort of investment, in delaying resource-use now in order to increase future possible usage. Yet another type of investment is buying stuff in bulk and on crash-sale, which can sometimes be a good idea even if you&#8217;re in debt. </p>
<p>In other words, I like the idea of investments, and they have worked out well (except for my stupid and not-to-be repeated forays into stocks <img src='http://earlyretirementextreme.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />  ). </p>
<p>At the same time, however, I am very much against debt and have always strived hard to avoid it. My attitude has almost always been to save up and buy, rather than to spend and pay off, and I have for years wondered at people buying expensive houses on mortgages (that I put buying my apartment back then to young cluelessness &#8211; and a lot of luck in that it turned out well).</p>
<p>I was therefore quite surprised the other week to discover that saving up for a house is not always the cheapest strategy, nor the freest.<br />
I had finally gotten my act together after all these years and spent 15min. writing a simple computer routine to calculate just how expensive it would be to save up X number of year while renting and then buy a house with the remaining mortgage to pay off.<br />
It turns out that if you can pay off a full mortgage in a short amount of time (typically 6-7 years but dependant on the prices, income, savings rate etc.), then you will end up paying more in rent than in mortage interest.<br />
Shocking! I&#8217;d expected the saving-method to be a clear winner in all but extreme cases. You might be bound for those 6-7 years but this lack of freedom would be offset by the freedom to live on your own terms, rather than potentially being kicked out by successive landlords. (Personally, if I were to buy a house, then I&#8217;d save up at least 25% even it were more expensive in the long run, just for financial insurance.)</p>
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		<title>By: no relation to this post,</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/how-i-would-get-out-of-debt-if-i-had-any.html/comment-page-1#comment-20136</link>
		<dc:creator>no relation to this post,</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Dec 2010 06:01:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=383#comment-20136</guid>
		<description>but I found an extremely extreme example of living on a fraction of one&#039;s income:
&quot;Most people rent a house, have a lot of expenses, work real hard, and maybe put 5% of their income away towards their dreams. But you have to work an awfully long time to get anywhere that way. We took the opposite approach and lived on 5% of our incomes while we put 95% away into savings. We got jobs leading stone-age wilderness expeditions, so it was pretty easy to keep expenses down.&quot;
here:
http://www.hollowtop.com/cls_html/limited.htm

Shows what&#039;s possible...1 year of savings gives 19 additional years at current year&#039;s living standards.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>but I found an extremely extreme example of living on a fraction of one&#8217;s income:<br />
&#8220;Most people rent a house, have a lot of expenses, work real hard, and maybe put 5% of their income away towards their dreams. But you have to work an awfully long time to get anywhere that way. We took the opposite approach and lived on 5% of our incomes while we put 95% away into savings. We got jobs leading stone-age wilderness expeditions, so it was pretty easy to keep expenses down.&#8221;<br />
here:<br />
<a href="http://www.hollowtop.com/cls_html/limited.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.hollowtop.com/cls_html/limited.htm</a></p>
<p>Shows what&#8217;s possible&#8230;1 year of savings gives 19 additional years at current year&#8217;s living standards.</p>
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		<title>By: deegee</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/how-i-would-get-out-of-debt-if-i-had-any.html/comment-page-1#comment-20134</link>
		<dc:creator>deegee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Dec 2010 01:44:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=383#comment-20134</guid>
		<description>To me, the 3 biggest single-item types of debt are (1) Student loans, (2) Car loans, and (3) Home mortgage.

One way I kept my debt under control was to pay off one of the above (student loans) before taking on another one of the above (home mortgage).

I always paid cash for the cars I bought even if I had one of the other forms of big debt.  And, of course, I never had any other types of personal debt such as credit cards.

In 1998, I paid off my mortgage which I first took in 1989 and refinanced in 1992 (saving me hundreds of dollars each month).  Been totally debt-free ever since.

In 2008 I retired at age 45.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To me, the 3 biggest single-item types of debt are (1) Student loans, (2) Car loans, and (3) Home mortgage.</p>
<p>One way I kept my debt under control was to pay off one of the above (student loans) before taking on another one of the above (home mortgage).</p>
<p>I always paid cash for the cars I bought even if I had one of the other forms of big debt.  And, of course, I never had any other types of personal debt such as credit cards.</p>
<p>In 1998, I paid off my mortgage which I first took in 1989 and refinanced in 1992 (saving me hundreds of dollars each month).  Been totally debt-free ever since.</p>
<p>In 2008 I retired at age 45.</p>
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		<title>By: Frankly</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/how-i-would-get-out-of-debt-if-i-had-any.html/comment-page-1#comment-20133</link>
		<dc:creator>Frankly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Dec 2010 20:41:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=383#comment-20133</guid>
		<description>Jacob,

I just noticed that the header info &quot;I have a written a book etc&quot; mentions a feedburner link for the RSS feed but when looking at the page source the alternate tags lists http://earlyretirementextreme.com/feed.  It appears the feedburner RSS feed contains all posts including reposts but the http://earlyretirementextreme.com/feed only contains new posts.  Anyway, this is kinda confusing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jacob,</p>
<p>I just noticed that the header info &#8220;I have a written a book etc&#8221; mentions a feedburner link for the RSS feed but when looking at the page source the alternate tags lists <a href="http://earlyretirementextreme.com/feed" rel="nofollow">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/feed</a>.  It appears the feedburner RSS feed contains all posts including reposts but the <a href="http://earlyretirementextreme.com/feed" rel="nofollow">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/feed</a> only contains new posts.  Anyway, this is kinda confusing.</p>
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		<title>By: Steward</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/how-i-would-get-out-of-debt-if-i-had-any.html/comment-page-1#comment-1937</link>
		<dc:creator>Steward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 18:32:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=383#comment-1937</guid>
		<description>I love fight club references.  It makes me want to swallow more than a pint of my own blood to see if I get sick.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love fight club references.  It makes me want to swallow more than a pint of my own blood to see if I get sick.</p>
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		<title>By: Eden</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/how-i-would-get-out-of-debt-if-i-had-any.html/comment-page-1#comment-1933</link>
		<dc:creator>Eden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 15:29:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=383#comment-1933</guid>
		<description>@mayalibre - You make some good points. My biggest concern in the student loan decision is whether I would actually earn the cost back some day. A degree is of course no guarantee of anything and I know that I could find myself in a new career field or doing something else that I could have done without the extra degree in the first place. I think I am struggling most with how to measure the risk versus the possible reward at this point.

@Jacob - thanks for following up with a student loan post. That was helpful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@mayalibre &#8211; You make some good points. My biggest concern in the student loan decision is whether I would actually earn the cost back some day. A degree is of course no guarantee of anything and I know that I could find myself in a new career field or doing something else that I could have done without the extra degree in the first place. I think I am struggling most with how to measure the risk versus the possible reward at this point.</p>
<p>@Jacob &#8211; thanks for following up with a student loan post. That was helpful.</p>
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		<title>By: mayalibre</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/how-i-would-get-out-of-debt-if-i-had-any.html/comment-page-1#comment-1911</link>
		<dc:creator>mayalibre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 18:03:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=383#comment-1911</guid>
		<description>Hi Jacob -- I have the same question as Eden above, and generally what you think of investment as a somewhat justifiable *type* of debt. I would leap ahead and say that I think we LABEL things as investments far too often -- ooooh, these $200 shoes are an &quot;investment&quot; in my sense of well-being... -- and forget, as you rightly point out, that there *is* a bondage to debt. Denial, or blindness, is an all too common human habit of mind. But is everything black or white? If you invest in an education (say), having done a full analysis of your goals, including the projected outcome, isn&#039;t *some* debt justifiable? Small businesses often also need capital to get started. Unfortunately the &quot;financial ecology&quot; of our culture is breaking down just like our physical ecology. In the old days, banks were very careful about who they lent to. Someone with a business proposition would have to go in, make a face-to-face connection with a bank manager, and lay out their business plan with all its details.  So there was accountability, and a personal connection, together, not one without the other.  Now banking regulations are falling apart, resulting in sub-prime mortgage mess and falling dollar-- but the accountability and personal connection are lost.  And credit cards are worse -- a piece of plastic arrives in the mail, the 800 customer service number goes to India, and we aren&#039;t accountable to anyone!

All that said, my underlying question is, is debt for a &quot;true investment&quot; really that bad?  By true investment I would mean a plan for temporary &quot;bondage&quot;, but with a fully analyzed plan and map for not only payback but an assement of how the investment will actually INCREASE our ability to sustain our lives and give back, presented to someone else (or even a small group or family) for feedback, comment, and also accountability.

For example, Eden, have you actually assessed, using independent sources, what the likely long term outcome of your investment is likely to be, beyond the loan payback period?  I read an article in the NY Times recently how people are being lured by culinary schools, with dreams of becoming chefs but at least the idea that they can always find work cooking. But these same students are being rudely awakened because the availability of chef or cooking jobs is not what they imagine and the earnings are pretty low. The schools don&#039;t care, they just want their tuition. So the students are coming out with huge debts but are only able to earn low wages. Nobody held the students accountable to their financial fantasies.

Anyway, Jacob, I&#039;m rambling! But you get the question. What about &quot;true investment&quot;?  Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Jacob &#8212; I have the same question as Eden above, and generally what you think of investment as a somewhat justifiable *type* of debt. I would leap ahead and say that I think we LABEL things as investments far too often &#8212; ooooh, these $200 shoes are an &#8220;investment&#8221; in my sense of well-being&#8230; &#8212; and forget, as you rightly point out, that there *is* a bondage to debt. Denial, or blindness, is an all too common human habit of mind. But is everything black or white? If you invest in an education (say), having done a full analysis of your goals, including the projected outcome, isn&#8217;t *some* debt justifiable? Small businesses often also need capital to get started. Unfortunately the &#8220;financial ecology&#8221; of our culture is breaking down just like our physical ecology. In the old days, banks were very careful about who they lent to. Someone with a business proposition would have to go in, make a face-to-face connection with a bank manager, and lay out their business plan with all its details.  So there was accountability, and a personal connection, together, not one without the other.  Now banking regulations are falling apart, resulting in sub-prime mortgage mess and falling dollar&#8211; but the accountability and personal connection are lost.  And credit cards are worse &#8212; a piece of plastic arrives in the mail, the 800 customer service number goes to India, and we aren&#8217;t accountable to anyone!</p>
<p>All that said, my underlying question is, is debt for a &#8220;true investment&#8221; really that bad?  By true investment I would mean a plan for temporary &#8220;bondage&#8221;, but with a fully analyzed plan and map for not only payback but an assement of how the investment will actually INCREASE our ability to sustain our lives and give back, presented to someone else (or even a small group or family) for feedback, comment, and also accountability.</p>
<p>For example, Eden, have you actually assessed, using independent sources, what the likely long term outcome of your investment is likely to be, beyond the loan payback period?  I read an article in the NY Times recently how people are being lured by culinary schools, with dreams of becoming chefs but at least the idea that they can always find work cooking. But these same students are being rudely awakened because the availability of chef or cooking jobs is not what they imagine and the earnings are pretty low. The schools don&#8217;t care, they just want their tuition. So the students are coming out with huge debts but are only able to earn low wages. Nobody held the students accountable to their financial fantasies.</p>
<p>Anyway, Jacob, I&#8217;m rambling! But you get the question. What about &#8220;true investment&#8221;?  Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: MoneyBlogga</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/how-i-would-get-out-of-debt-if-i-had-any.html/comment-page-1#comment-1910</link>
		<dc:creator>MoneyBlogga</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 17:58:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=383#comment-1910</guid>
		<description>I needed you following me around looking over my shoulder 20 years ago ..... I&#039;m not EVEN joking. Only now am I &quot;getting it&quot;. I know exactly what I need to do now to guarantee early retirement in 10 years time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I needed you following me around looking over my shoulder 20 years ago &#8230;.. I&#8217;m not EVEN joking. Only now am I &#8220;getting it&#8221;. I know exactly what I need to do now to guarantee early retirement in 10 years time.</p>
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		<title>By: Eden</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/how-i-would-get-out-of-debt-if-i-had-any.html/comment-page-1#comment-1909</link>
		<dc:creator>Eden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 13:18:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=383#comment-1909</guid>
		<description>Jacob, wondering what you think of taking on debt for school- I&#039;m considering starting a master&#039;s degree program soon and it will mean taking on about $16,000 of more debt. I expect the earn a bigger income that will easily pay for that, but at the same time I suppose I&#039;m just obligating myself to many more years of work. What&#039;s your take and/or have you written about student loans before?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jacob, wondering what you think of taking on debt for school- I&#8217;m considering starting a master&#8217;s degree program soon and it will mean taking on about $16,000 of more debt. I expect the earn a bigger income that will easily pay for that, but at the same time I suppose I&#8217;m just obligating myself to many more years of work. What&#8217;s your take and/or have you written about student loans before?</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/how-i-would-get-out-of-debt-if-i-had-any.html/comment-page-1#comment-1908</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 05:44:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=383#comment-1908</guid>
		<description>@galinaz - If you look at the cash flows, the situation you have set up actually corresponds to a situation, where the life insurance company owes you money and you have elected to take the pay outs continuously in exchange for not getting the large pay out at the end. In other words, you are transferring liability to the insurance company. I think that is okay. I&#039;m not a big expert on insurance products, but what is the difference between this approach and buying an annuity. They should have the same value, no?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@galinaz &#8211; If you look at the cash flows, the situation you have set up actually corresponds to a situation, where the life insurance company owes you money and you have elected to take the pay outs continuously in exchange for not getting the large pay out at the end. In other words, you are transferring liability to the insurance company. I think that is okay. I&#8217;m not a big expert on insurance products, but what is the difference between this approach and buying an annuity. They should have the same value, no?</p>
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		<title>By: galinaz</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/how-i-would-get-out-of-debt-if-i-had-any.html/comment-page-1#comment-1907</link>
		<dc:creator>galinaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 04:52:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=383#comment-1907</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s a different viewpoint.  We have a pension for life (retired military) so DH sees no problem with carrying debt up to the limit of his life insurance.  Drives me nuts.  But if you have a guaranteed income, why not spend it when you want to as long as you can pay it off when the income stops?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s a different viewpoint.  We have a pension for life (retired military) so DH sees no problem with carrying debt up to the limit of his life insurance.  Drives me nuts.  But if you have a guaranteed income, why not spend it when you want to as long as you can pay it off when the income stops?</p>
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