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	<title>Comments on: The index vs mutual funds debate</title>
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		<title>By: optionsdude</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-index-vs-mutual-fund-debate.html/comment-page-1#comment-21855</link>
		<dc:creator>optionsdude</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Apr 2011 14:01:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=1692#comment-21855</guid>
		<description>Excellent illustration.  The problem with trying to pick your own mutual funds or stocks is that those leading the funds or companies may have been one of the types of students you describe.  Think Enron or Tyco.  Betting on the jockey becomes very important, but there has to be quite a bit of history involved with the jockey as well.  Eddie Lampert seemed like a genius but has faded into obscurity the last few years.  Arrgh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent illustration.  The problem with trying to pick your own mutual funds or stocks is that those leading the funds or companies may have been one of the types of students you describe.  Think Enron or Tyco.  Betting on the jockey becomes very important, but there has to be quite a bit of history involved with the jockey as well.  Eddie Lampert seemed like a genius but has faded into obscurity the last few years.  Arrgh.</p>
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		<title>By: jc</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-index-vs-mutual-fund-debate.html/comment-page-1#comment-21846</link>
		<dc:creator>jc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Apr 2011 20:17:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=1692#comment-21846</guid>
		<description>This is always a fascinating debate and I’ve been on both sides of it at various times in my 60 years.  For a very long time I laughed at the indexers.  I also made all of the arguments posted here and then some.

After all, if you just avoided the obvious dogs you’d do better than average, right?  Who would be stupid enough to own GM a couple of years ago?  Or Ford?  Opps.  Better forget about Ford.  Hindsight is a beautiful and perfect thing.

I even took a major pay cut to join an investment research firm mid-career.  There I was surrounded by exceedingly bright people.  Each focused on one, maybe two industries and perhaps 6-10 stocks.  More than one was honored in the trade press as “Analyst of the Year” for their work.

They knew each of these companies inside and out.  They knew the top executives.    They knew the middle-managers and the front line people.  They knew the customers.  They spoke to them weekly.  

They didn’t get info before everyone else (that’s insider trading and illegal).  But they did know exactly when and how the info would be released, as did every other competent analyst around the world.  Any new information was reflected in the stock price within minutes.

They issued reports our institutional investor clients paid dearly for.  And yet, predicting stock performance remained frustratingly elusive.

If you’ve worked in a major corporation it is not hard to see why.  The CEO and CFO work with internal forecasts from their teams.  The process looks something like this:

Salespeople are required to forecast what their customers will spend.  Since these buys are rarely locked in far in advance, and can be cancelled anytime, nothing is certain.  Add to this all the pending business that may or may not come to fruition and basically you are asking the field salesperson to predict the future.  So, of course, they take a guess.

These guesses get passed on to their managers, who now have their own forecasts and decisions to make.  Do I take these sales forecasts at face value?  Do I adjust them based on knowing Suzy is an optimist and Harry always sees dark clouds?  So, of course, they take a guess and pass it on to the next layer of management.

So it goes until all these guesses are consolidated into the nicely packaged budget/forecast binders presented to top management.  More often than not, after one look, they’ll say:  “This is unacceptable.  We can’t present this forecast to Wall Street.  Go back and revise these numbers.”  Back down the chain it goes.  Maybe multiple times, and each time the numbers get a bit further from reality.

Now predicting the future is a dicey proposition for even the most gifted psychics, and they are not burdened with this process.

Suddenly my enormous hubris was clear.  Somehow reading a few books and 10ks was going to give me an edge?  Over not only the professional analysts who lived a breathed this stuff all day every day, but also the executives that ran the companies in question?  I could succeed where they could not?

Suddenly I realized why even rock star fund managers find it almost impossible to best the simple index over time.

There is a reason names like Buffet and Lynch are so revered and well known.  There are also reasons more fortunes have been made brokering trades than making them.

That’s why I’m an indexer.  If you choose to try to best the averages, God Bless and God Speed.  You may well be smarter and more talented than I.  You are most certainly likely to be better looking.  I’ll look for your name along with Warren and Peter’s in the not too distant future.

I extend the same to all those folks I’ve met in Vegas who assure me they have bested the house.  I listen, gaze up at the billion dollar casinos and reflect on how many smarter, more talented and better looking people there are than me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is always a fascinating debate and I’ve been on both sides of it at various times in my 60 years.  For a very long time I laughed at the indexers.  I also made all of the arguments posted here and then some.</p>
<p>After all, if you just avoided the obvious dogs you’d do better than average, right?  Who would be stupid enough to own GM a couple of years ago?  Or Ford?  Opps.  Better forget about Ford.  Hindsight is a beautiful and perfect thing.</p>
<p>I even took a major pay cut to join an investment research firm mid-career.  There I was surrounded by exceedingly bright people.  Each focused on one, maybe two industries and perhaps 6-10 stocks.  More than one was honored in the trade press as “Analyst of the Year” for their work.</p>
<p>They knew each of these companies inside and out.  They knew the top executives.    They knew the middle-managers and the front line people.  They knew the customers.  They spoke to them weekly.  </p>
<p>They didn’t get info before everyone else (that’s insider trading and illegal).  But they did know exactly when and how the info would be released, as did every other competent analyst around the world.  Any new information was reflected in the stock price within minutes.</p>
<p>They issued reports our institutional investor clients paid dearly for.  And yet, predicting stock performance remained frustratingly elusive.</p>
<p>If you’ve worked in a major corporation it is not hard to see why.  The CEO and CFO work with internal forecasts from their teams.  The process looks something like this:</p>
<p>Salespeople are required to forecast what their customers will spend.  Since these buys are rarely locked in far in advance, and can be cancelled anytime, nothing is certain.  Add to this all the pending business that may or may not come to fruition and basically you are asking the field salesperson to predict the future.  So, of course, they take a guess.</p>
<p>These guesses get passed on to their managers, who now have their own forecasts and decisions to make.  Do I take these sales forecasts at face value?  Do I adjust them based on knowing Suzy is an optimist and Harry always sees dark clouds?  So, of course, they take a guess and pass it on to the next layer of management.</p>
<p>So it goes until all these guesses are consolidated into the nicely packaged budget/forecast binders presented to top management.  More often than not, after one look, they’ll say:  “This is unacceptable.  We can’t present this forecast to Wall Street.  Go back and revise these numbers.”  Back down the chain it goes.  Maybe multiple times, and each time the numbers get a bit further from reality.</p>
<p>Now predicting the future is a dicey proposition for even the most gifted psychics, and they are not burdened with this process.</p>
<p>Suddenly my enormous hubris was clear.  Somehow reading a few books and 10ks was going to give me an edge?  Over not only the professional analysts who lived a breathed this stuff all day every day, but also the executives that ran the companies in question?  I could succeed where they could not?</p>
<p>Suddenly I realized why even rock star fund managers find it almost impossible to best the simple index over time.</p>
<p>There is a reason names like Buffet and Lynch are so revered and well known.  There are also reasons more fortunes have been made brokering trades than making them.</p>
<p>That’s why I’m an indexer.  If you choose to try to best the averages, God Bless and God Speed.  You may well be smarter and more talented than I.  You are most certainly likely to be better looking.  I’ll look for your name along with Warren and Peter’s in the not too distant future.</p>
<p>I extend the same to all those folks I’ve met in Vegas who assure me they have bested the house.  I listen, gaze up at the billion dollar casinos and reflect on how many smarter, more talented and better looking people there are than me.</p>
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		<title>By: ElizabethG</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-index-vs-mutual-fund-debate.html/comment-page-1#comment-5116</link>
		<dc:creator>ElizabethG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 18:50:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=1692#comment-5116</guid>
		<description>I am an indexer as I&#039;ve blogged about before. Two main reasons, one, I prefer to spend my time analyzing large asset allocation moves (like bonds, stocks, cash) for big turns in the market.  And two, the fees for index funds are substantially lower than either actively managed funds or paying fees on a lot of transactions of individually owned stocks.

Obviously, there are individuals that can beat the market in the long-run, Warren Buffet being one of my favorite investors.  But over time, I still think most individual investors only perform in certain conditions (like an up market), and the downside risk is great when the market turns against them.  

Think of it as a de-pessimizing strategy instead of an optimizing strategy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am an indexer as I&#8217;ve blogged about before. Two main reasons, one, I prefer to spend my time analyzing large asset allocation moves (like bonds, stocks, cash) for big turns in the market.  And two, the fees for index funds are substantially lower than either actively managed funds or paying fees on a lot of transactions of individually owned stocks.</p>
<p>Obviously, there are individuals that can beat the market in the long-run, Warren Buffet being one of my favorite investors.  But over time, I still think most individual investors only perform in certain conditions (like an up market), and the downside risk is great when the market turns against them.  </p>
<p>Think of it as a de-pessimizing strategy instead of an optimizing strategy.</p>
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		<title>By: George</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-index-vs-mutual-fund-debate.html/comment-page-1#comment-5106</link>
		<dc:creator>George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 21:26:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=1692#comment-5106</guid>
		<description>All I can say is that I&#039;ve measured my individual stock investing, month-by-month, for 12 years and compared those same investments to the S&amp;P 500 (which includes dividends).  I&#039;m ahead by 30% compared to investing in the S&amp;P 500 over that timeframe and I&#039;m not a genius investor, so it can be done.

I had another 5 years experience prior to that which probably mirrored the S&amp;P 500 (I was getting annual returns of 15-25% in that era), but a home purchase in 1997 gave me an excuse to not keep track of those earlier years in the current records because I now had a mortgage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All I can say is that I&#8217;ve measured my individual stock investing, month-by-month, for 12 years and compared those same investments to the S&amp;P 500 (which includes dividends).  I&#8217;m ahead by 30% compared to investing in the S&amp;P 500 over that timeframe and I&#8217;m not a genius investor, so it can be done.</p>
<p>I had another 5 years experience prior to that which probably mirrored the S&amp;P 500 (I was getting annual returns of 15-25% in that era), but a home purchase in 1997 gave me an excuse to not keep track of those earlier years in the current records because I now had a mortgage.</p>
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		<title>By: AJ</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-index-vs-mutual-fund-debate.html/comment-page-1#comment-5105</link>
		<dc:creator>AJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 19:25:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=1692#comment-5105</guid>
		<description>Harry Browne said that investing is accepting the returns that are available to all, ie. ~the same as the market, and that speculating is trying to beat the market. His advice was to invest with the money you need (like retirement savings) and speculate with everything else. That&#039;s what I follow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Harry Browne said that investing is accepting the returns that are available to all, ie. ~the same as the market, and that speculating is trying to beat the market. His advice was to invest with the money you need (like retirement savings) and speculate with everything else. That&#8217;s what I follow.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-index-vs-mutual-fund-debate.html/comment-page-1#comment-5104</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 17:58:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=1692#comment-5104</guid>
		<description>Well, I know I&#039;m smart enough to do at least as well as the market (and this is why I&#039;m not in index funds) and do so at about half the volatility (because I also run shorts) at least during my investment &quot;career&quot; which admittedly is only 4 years. Lately I have been doing much better than the market, like 20% better, but maybe in half a year, the market will catch up or alternatively, I will fall back again. I also know that there are people smarter than me (I can tell!) that have been beating the market for the past 10+ years and this is why I also own their funds (FPACX, HSGFX, and DODFX, for those who are interested).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I know I&#8217;m smart enough to do at least as well as the market (and this is why I&#8217;m not in index funds) and do so at about half the volatility (because I also run shorts) at least during my investment &#8220;career&#8221; which admittedly is only 4 years. Lately I have been doing much better than the market, like 20% better, but maybe in half a year, the market will catch up or alternatively, I will fall back again. I also know that there are people smarter than me (I can tell!) that have been beating the market for the past 10+ years and this is why I also own their funds (FPACX, HSGFX, and DODFX, for those who are interested).</p>
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		<title>By: Debbie M</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-index-vs-mutual-fund-debate.html/comment-page-1#comment-5103</link>
		<dc:creator>Debbie M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 17:33:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=1692#comment-5103</guid>
		<description>Oops.  That tiny &quot;is&quot; and &quot;were&quot; were supposed to be italicized, not shrunken and displayed on a line of their own.

Sorry!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops.  That tiny &#8220;is&#8221; and &#8220;were&#8221; were supposed to be italicized, not shrunken and displayed on a line of their own.</p>
<p>Sorry!</p>
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		<title>By: Debbie M</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-index-vs-mutual-fund-debate.html/comment-page-1#comment-5102</link>
		<dc:creator>Debbie M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 17:30:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=1692#comment-5102</guid>
		<description>I think your analogy falls down in one area.

&quot;A more costly approach is to study hard. This usually works but not always. ... You can become a good manager yourself. You know it can’t be that difficult, when business students can do it! ;-D&quot;

I would say that it &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; that difficult.  That studying and learning about businesses in order to, rather than pass a test, guess how their stocks and dividends will perform during relevant periods, is not only &quot;costly&quot; but much more difficult than learning the (carefully measured) material presented in a college class.

To pick just one issue: whether what&#039;s going now really is different.  It&#039;s easy to say that it&#039;s not different this time and that things are cyclical because they&#039;ve always been cyclical in our lifetimes.

But how could we really know for sure that this time it&#039;s not different, even though the entire financial sector is imploding, and with the resulting stricter lending policies, all industries associated with debt, such as the auto and housing industries, are in big trouble?  And during the Enron crisis, how could we be sure that this time it&#039;s not different even though we can no longer trust the information we are given?  And during the &#039;70s, how could we be sure that this time it&#039;s not different when no one had ever noticed stagnation and inflation happening at the same time?

There have been times in the past when things &lt;em&gt;were&lt;/em&gt; different.  The Great Depression.  The Black Death.  Not to mention the invention of factories, the invention of the computer, and the discovery that clean water was good for your health.

And that&#039;s why index funds make up a large part of my portfolio.  I know I&#039;m not smart enough to beat the market, and I sure don&#039;t trust anyone else to be smarter either.  (I do also invest in some companies where I have access to additional information either by knowing someone who works there or by being a regular customer.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think your analogy falls down in one area.</p>
<p>&#8220;A more costly approach is to study hard. This usually works but not always. &#8230; You can become a good manager yourself. You know it can’t be that difficult, when business students can do it! ;-D&#8221;</p>
<p>I would say that it <em>is</em> that difficult.  That studying and learning about businesses in order to, rather than pass a test, guess how their stocks and dividends will perform during relevant periods, is not only &#8220;costly&#8221; but much more difficult than learning the (carefully measured) material presented in a college class.</p>
<p>To pick just one issue: whether what&#8217;s going now really is different.  It&#8217;s easy to say that it&#8217;s not different this time and that things are cyclical because they&#8217;ve always been cyclical in our lifetimes.</p>
<p>But how could we really know for sure that this time it&#8217;s not different, even though the entire financial sector is imploding, and with the resulting stricter lending policies, all industries associated with debt, such as the auto and housing industries, are in big trouble?  And during the Enron crisis, how could we be sure that this time it&#8217;s not different even though we can no longer trust the information we are given?  And during the &#8217;70s, how could we be sure that this time it&#8217;s not different when no one had ever noticed stagnation and inflation happening at the same time?</p>
<p>There have been times in the past when things <em>were</em> different.  The Great Depression.  The Black Death.  Not to mention the invention of factories, the invention of the computer, and the discovery that clean water was good for your health.</p>
<p>And that&#8217;s why index funds make up a large part of my portfolio.  I know I&#8217;m not smart enough to beat the market, and I sure don&#8217;t trust anyone else to be smarter either.  (I do also invest in some companies where I have access to additional information either by knowing someone who works there or by being a regular customer.)</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-index-vs-mutual-fund-debate.html/comment-page-1#comment-5095</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 00:50:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=1692#comment-5095</guid>
		<description>@Wimsey - Actually, the winner was Warren Buffet, which makes the seasoned stock picker the winner as I see it ;-) [And you can invest with him for no fee at all].

Anyway, you&#039;re comparing apples and oranges. One thing is the different performance of indexes, funds, or stocks. Another thing is individual investment behavior.  So what you&#039;re comparing above is index buy&amp;hold, which is great when the momentum is sustained upwards with what is probably for the large part a jumping in and out of funds and stocks that looked good last year, which is practically never beneficial during sustained rallies.  Now try comparing the index momentum play during a period where it wasn&#039;t favored, like the 1970s when the market was in a trading range ... like the index has been since about 2000.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Wimsey &#8211; Actually, the winner was Warren Buffet, which makes the seasoned stock picker the winner as I see it <img src='http://earlyretirementextreme.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' />  [And you can invest with him for no fee at all].</p>
<p>Anyway, you&#8217;re comparing apples and oranges. One thing is the different performance of indexes, funds, or stocks. Another thing is individual investment behavior.  So what you&#8217;re comparing above is index buy&amp;hold, which is great when the momentum is sustained upwards with what is probably for the large part a jumping in and out of funds and stocks that looked good last year, which is practically never beneficial during sustained rallies.  Now try comparing the index momentum play during a period where it wasn&#8217;t favored, like the 1970s when the market was in a trading range &#8230; like the index has been since about 2000.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-index-vs-mutual-fund-debate.html/comment-page-1#comment-5094</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 00:30:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=1692#comment-5094</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s been a while (04/15/09) since the last Day # post.  I started reading your feed recently and just made it to Day 0.  Good stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s been a while (04/15/09) since the last Day # post.  I started reading your feed recently and just made it to Day 0.  Good stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: Wimsey</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-index-vs-mutual-fund-debate.html/comment-page-1#comment-5093</link>
		<dc:creator>Wimsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 23:33:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=1692#comment-5093</guid>
		<description>...and yet the average (American) private investor between 1986 and 2005 reached an average return of 4.5%, compared to almost 12% for the S&amp;P 500 (Research done by the Dalbar Institute, i believe). The &quot;indexer&quot; was the winner as I see it.
To paraphrase Warren Buffet: &quot;A person with an IQ of a 150, who thinks he&#039;s got a score of 160, will be a worse investor than a person with an IQ of 130 who thinks his score is 120.
Maybe something for you to contemplate, Jacob?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;and yet the average (American) private investor between 1986 and 2005 reached an average return of 4.5%, compared to almost 12% for the S&amp;P 500 (Research done by the Dalbar Institute, i believe). The &#8220;indexer&#8221; was the winner as I see it.<br />
To paraphrase Warren Buffet: &#8220;A person with an IQ of a 150, who thinks he&#8217;s got a score of 160, will be a worse investor than a person with an IQ of 130 who thinks his score is 120.<br />
Maybe something for you to contemplate, Jacob?</p>
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		<title>By: Mo</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-index-vs-mutual-fund-debate.html/comment-page-1#comment-5091</link>
		<dc:creator>Mo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 20:50:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=1692#comment-5091</guid>
		<description>I too liked the analogy. 

Also George&#039;s comment was something that somehow I&#039;d never thought of, even though it&#039;s plainly obvious and inherent to the whole concept of index investing. I find it hysterically funny to think that anyone who bought into a dow index fund during the past 6 months was investing part of his money in GM!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I too liked the analogy. </p>
<p>Also George&#8217;s comment was something that somehow I&#8217;d never thought of, even though it&#8217;s plainly obvious and inherent to the whole concept of index investing. I find it hysterically funny to think that anyone who bought into a dow index fund during the past 6 months was investing part of his money in GM!</p>
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		<title>By: George</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-index-vs-mutual-fund-debate.html/comment-page-1#comment-5087</link>
		<dc:creator>George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 19:08:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=1692#comment-5087</guid>
		<description>Best analogy I&#039;ve ever read for index investing.  Just remember that the indexes HAVE to include the obvious losers as well as the winners... like what intelligent investor would have owned Washington Mutual from, say, June 2007 to its demise in September 2008?  Yet all index funds did exactly that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Best analogy I&#8217;ve ever read for index investing.  Just remember that the indexes HAVE to include the obvious losers as well as the winners&#8230; like what intelligent investor would have owned Washington Mutual from, say, June 2007 to its demise in September 2008?  Yet all index funds did exactly that.</p>
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		<title>By: Saj</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-index-vs-mutual-fund-debate.html/comment-page-1#comment-5085</link>
		<dc:creator>Saj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 18:13:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=1692#comment-5085</guid>
		<description>Nice analogy, and equally valid if applied to the money managers themselves (resulting in herding) rather than only to individuals!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice analogy, and equally valid if applied to the money managers themselves (resulting in herding) rather than only to individuals!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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