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	<title>Comments on: The major risks of buy and hold index investing</title>
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		<title>By: Best of Personal Finance Investing Blog Posts # 5</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-major-risks-of-buy-and-hold-index-investing.html/comment-page-1#comment-25504</link>
		<dc:creator>Best of Personal Finance Investing Blog Posts # 5</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Sep 2011 12:32:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=199#comment-25504</guid>
		<description>[...] The Major Risks of Buy and Hold Index Investing – EarlyRetirementExtreme.com [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Major Risks of Buy and Hold Index Investing – EarlyRetirementExtreme.com [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Diogenes</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-major-risks-of-buy-and-hold-index-investing.html/comment-page-1#comment-25204</link>
		<dc:creator>Diogenes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Aug 2011 15:06:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=199#comment-25204</guid>
		<description>CASHING IN ON THE AMERICAN DREAM by Paul Terhorst. The last time I heard from Paul he was 100% in stocks, primarily index funds at that. He stopped using Cds decades ago. Ever calculate what $500,000 in 1988 would be in today&#039;s dollars???  Close to a million!

Benjamin Graham. In one of the last interviews he ever did he said that there was so much competition in the financial markets that index funds were the wise way to go. Financial Analysts Journal, 1976. 

Doesn&#039;t anyone realize that the Dow Jones Industrial Average, as regularly quoted in the media, does NOT include dividends? The same is true for the S&amp;P 500 generally. If you want the total return you would need to use VFINX, Vanguard&#039;s fund. 

Dollar Cost Averaging has been debunked more times than I have fingers. NOBODY GAINS FROM DOLLAR COST AVERAGING: ANALYTICAL, NUMERICAL AND EMPIRICAL RESULTS, Financial Services Review, Volume 2, issue one, Knight and Mandell. 

If you can&#039;t discern the difference between Wall Street and mutual fund propaganda and the reality of investing best keep your money in the bank. Try reading articles by Paul Samuelson and Zvi Bodie. No stocks for the long run, no buy and hold, and only index funds  Diogenes</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CASHING IN ON THE AMERICAN DREAM by Paul Terhorst. The last time I heard from Paul he was 100% in stocks, primarily index funds at that. He stopped using Cds decades ago. Ever calculate what $500,000 in 1988 would be in today&#8217;s dollars???  Close to a million!</p>
<p>Benjamin Graham. In one of the last interviews he ever did he said that there was so much competition in the financial markets that index funds were the wise way to go. Financial Analysts Journal, 1976. </p>
<p>Doesn&#8217;t anyone realize that the Dow Jones Industrial Average, as regularly quoted in the media, does NOT include dividends? The same is true for the S&amp;P 500 generally. If you want the total return you would need to use VFINX, Vanguard&#8217;s fund. </p>
<p>Dollar Cost Averaging has been debunked more times than I have fingers. NOBODY GAINS FROM DOLLAR COST AVERAGING: ANALYTICAL, NUMERICAL AND EMPIRICAL RESULTS, Financial Services Review, Volume 2, issue one, Knight and Mandell. </p>
<p>If you can&#8217;t discern the difference between Wall Street and mutual fund propaganda and the reality of investing best keep your money in the bank. Try reading articles by Paul Samuelson and Zvi Bodie. No stocks for the long run, no buy and hold, and only index funds  Diogenes</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-major-risks-of-buy-and-hold-index-investing.html/comment-page-1#comment-25196</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Aug 2011 12:36:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=199#comment-25196</guid>
		<description>I agree that short term, you really can&#039;t rely on the market.  But that has always been the case.  It is not for short term savings.  Will the market remain down forever because the baby boomers are a large population? Not necessarily.

Here is a scenario.  Baby boomers take their money out of the market, but they spend more on drugs.  That increases revenue for a company like Abbott.  The increased revenues make it flush with cash.  To raise the stock price, they increase the dividend (already almost 4%).  Government keeps rates low and eventually investors will be drawn to the difference in dividend. People remember stuff but only so long. 

That is just one scenario.  There are plenty of ways that the market can avoid going down just because the baby boomers are taking money out.  For instance, Gen X is small, Gen Y is huge.  

The incentive for the government is to inflate, that wipes away debt and keeps investment going.  That means prices and revenue will go up.

This may be in 2 years, it may be in 10 years. I agree, if you are trying to retire right now, you can&#039;t plan on it.  Eventually, it will probably be the best investment return.  That is a risk if you want steady returns.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that short term, you really can&#8217;t rely on the market.  But that has always been the case.  It is not for short term savings.  Will the market remain down forever because the baby boomers are a large population? Not necessarily.</p>
<p>Here is a scenario.  Baby boomers take their money out of the market, but they spend more on drugs.  That increases revenue for a company like Abbott.  The increased revenues make it flush with cash.  To raise the stock price, they increase the dividend (already almost 4%).  Government keeps rates low and eventually investors will be drawn to the difference in dividend. People remember stuff but only so long. </p>
<p>That is just one scenario.  There are plenty of ways that the market can avoid going down just because the baby boomers are taking money out.  For instance, Gen X is small, Gen Y is huge.  </p>
<p>The incentive for the government is to inflate, that wipes away debt and keeps investment going.  That means prices and revenue will go up.</p>
<p>This may be in 2 years, it may be in 10 years. I agree, if you are trying to retire right now, you can&#8217;t plan on it.  Eventually, it will probably be the best investment return.  That is a risk if you want steady returns.</p>
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		<title>By: The Weekend Dividend Hits</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-major-risks-of-buy-and-hold-index-investing.html/comment-page-1#comment-25177</link>
		<dc:creator>The Weekend Dividend Hits</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Aug 2011 12:01:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=199#comment-25177</guid>
		<description>[...] The major risks of buy and hold index investing @ [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The major risks of buy and hold index investing @ [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Yakezie Challenge</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-major-risks-of-buy-and-hold-index-investing.html/comment-page-1#comment-25176</link>
		<dc:creator>Yakezie Challenge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Aug 2011 11:02:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=199#comment-25176</guid>
		<description>[...] The major risks of buy and hold index investing @ [...]</description>
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		<title>By: Caine</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-major-risks-of-buy-and-hold-index-investing.html/comment-page-1#comment-25169</link>
		<dc:creator>Caine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Aug 2011 04:54:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=199#comment-25169</guid>
		<description>Millions of people blindly investing in the S+P 500 gives S+P extraordinary power over the markets. What would a company do for a listing on their index?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Millions of people blindly investing in the S+P 500 gives S+P extraordinary power over the markets. What would a company do for a listing on their index?</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-major-risks-of-buy-and-hold-index-investing.html/comment-page-1#comment-25167</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Aug 2011 01:19:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=199#comment-25167</guid>
		<description>@Raghu - http://www.frbsf.org/publications/economics/letter/2011/el2011-26.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Raghu &#8211; <a href="http://www.frbsf.org/publications/economics/letter/2011/el2011-26.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.frbsf.org/publications/economics/letter/2011/el2011-26.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Raghu Bilhana</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-major-risks-of-buy-and-hold-index-investing.html/comment-page-1#comment-25166</link>
		<dc:creator>Raghu Bilhana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Aug 2011 01:15:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=199#comment-25166</guid>
		<description>@Jacob

Most of the points you have made in this article looks like your hypothesis to me.

Do you have statistics or data to backup your statements? More data and evidence would be helpful for believers in buy and hold investing like me to see your side of the story. There is tons of information and data to backup the claims of great buy and hold investors like Ben Graham, Warren Buffett, just to name a few. So if you can provide some data for us to look at, that would be great. So we can look at why you say Buy and hold investing is only for people with herd mentality.

I greatly admire your other other articles about your early retirement philosophy though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Jacob</p>
<p>Most of the points you have made in this article looks like your hypothesis to me.</p>
<p>Do you have statistics or data to backup your statements? More data and evidence would be helpful for believers in buy and hold investing like me to see your side of the story. There is tons of information and data to backup the claims of great buy and hold investors like Ben Graham, Warren Buffett, just to name a few. So if you can provide some data for us to look at, that would be great. So we can look at why you say Buy and hold investing is only for people with herd mentality.</p>
<p>I greatly admire your other other articles about your early retirement philosophy though.</p>
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		<title>By: Raghu Bilhana</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-major-risks-of-buy-and-hold-index-investing.html/comment-page-1#comment-25164</link>
		<dc:creator>Raghu Bilhana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Aug 2011 01:07:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=199#comment-25164</guid>
		<description>@George

A retired person should not be investing 100% of their portfolio in stocks anyway. Only such portion of a retirement portfolio should be invested in stocks where the retiree would not be needing that money for at least 15 years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@George</p>
<p>A retired person should not be investing 100% of their portfolio in stocks anyway. Only such portion of a retirement portfolio should be invested in stocks where the retiree would not be needing that money for at least 15 years.</p>
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		<title>By: George the original one</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-major-risks-of-buy-and-hold-index-investing.html/comment-page-1#comment-25163</link>
		<dc:creator>George the original one</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Aug 2011 22:55:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=199#comment-25163</guid>
		<description>@Raghu -

&gt; Your flat theory assumes you would have 
&gt; invested all your money in a single lumpsum.

When you retire, that is what happens.  You are essentially investing as a lump sum.  After all, when you are retired, where is the money for future investments going to come from?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Raghu -</p>
<p>&gt; Your flat theory assumes you would have<br />
&gt; invested all your money in a single lumpsum.</p>
<p>When you retire, that is what happens.  You are essentially investing as a lump sum.  After all, when you are retired, where is the money for future investments going to come from?</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-major-risks-of-buy-and-hold-index-investing.html/comment-page-1#comment-25161</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Aug 2011 21:31:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=199#comment-25161</guid>
		<description>@Rodent - A quadrupling in 20 years is rather optimistic  
http://www.multpl.com/s-p-500-earnings/ It would require a sustained growth rate of 7% without interruptions. How can market earnings possibly grow at over twice the rate of the GDP for that long?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Rodent &#8211; A quadrupling in 20 years is rather optimistic<br />
<a href="http://www.multpl.com/s-p-500-earnings/" rel="nofollow">http://www.multpl.com/s-p-500-earnings/</a> It would require a sustained growth rate of 7% without interruptions. How can market earnings possibly grow at over twice the rate of the GDP for that long?</p>
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		<title>By: Rodent</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-major-risks-of-buy-and-hold-index-investing.html/comment-page-1#comment-25160</link>
		<dc:creator>Rodent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Aug 2011 21:20:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=199#comment-25160</guid>
		<description>If the P/E of the market is around 11 now and if earnings quadruple in 20 years then the P/E would be around 2.5.  You think money will not flow into these super cheap stocks?  The stock market is not some ponzy scheme - that&#039;s all BS.  Economy always grows long term and that&#039;s the fundamental.  Some of you guys are scare mongers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the P/E of the market is around 11 now and if earnings quadruple in 20 years then the P/E would be around 2.5.  You think money will not flow into these super cheap stocks?  The stock market is not some ponzy scheme &#8211; that&#8217;s all BS.  Economy always grows long term and that&#8217;s the fundamental.  Some of you guys are scare mongers.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin@RothIRA</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-major-risks-of-buy-and-hold-index-investing.html/comment-page-1#comment-25158</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin@RothIRA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Aug 2011 20:49:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=199#comment-25158</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve long felt that index funds are the preferred place for the average investor to be AFTER the market has had a blow out.  By then much of the risk has been flushed out of the market, and index funds are a way to track the market up without having to get deep into analysis.  

The flip side is protecting those gains when the market starts to tumble, and that means getting out when the market is looking rich, not after it&#039;s fallen 20-30%. I don&#039;t see bonds as being an effective counter stocks, certainly not in the way it&#039;s portrayed.  There have been times when all asset classes have fallen at the same time.  In the early 1980s for example, high interest rates caused stocks, bonds and commodities to fall at the same time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve long felt that index funds are the preferred place for the average investor to be AFTER the market has had a blow out.  By then much of the risk has been flushed out of the market, and index funds are a way to track the market up without having to get deep into analysis.  </p>
<p>The flip side is protecting those gains when the market starts to tumble, and that means getting out when the market is looking rich, not after it&#8217;s fallen 20-30%. I don&#8217;t see bonds as being an effective counter stocks, certainly not in the way it&#8217;s portrayed.  There have been times when all asset classes have fallen at the same time.  In the early 1980s for example, high interest rates caused stocks, bonds and commodities to fall at the same time.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-major-risks-of-buy-and-hold-index-investing.html/comment-page-1#comment-25157</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Aug 2011 20:38:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=199#comment-25157</guid>
		<description>@Raghu - But seeing the boomer selling will depress the market for 20 years, then maybe one would need to have 20 years worth in cash to avoid selling ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Raghu &#8211; But seeing the boomer selling will depress the market for 20 years, then maybe one would need to have 20 years worth in cash to avoid selling &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Raghu Bilhana</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-major-risks-of-buy-and-hold-index-investing.html/comment-page-1#comment-25156</link>
		<dc:creator>Raghu Bilhana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Aug 2011 20:33:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=199#comment-25156</guid>
		<description>@Jacob

When the market is already lower, you dont sell. That is the reason you need to have 4-5 years of living expenses in very liquid  or relatively safer investments after you retire.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Jacob</p>
<p>When the market is already lower, you dont sell. That is the reason you need to have 4-5 years of living expenses in very liquid  or relatively safer investments after you retire.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-major-risks-of-buy-and-hold-index-investing.html/comment-page-1#comment-25155</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Aug 2011 19:33:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=199#comment-25155</guid>
		<description>@Raghu - What happens to DCA if the market is lower than the average price during the accumulation phase (as suggested by demographics) when you want to sell?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Raghu &#8211; What happens to DCA if the market is lower than the average price during the accumulation phase (as suggested by demographics) when you want to sell?</p>
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		<title>By: Raghu Bilhana</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-major-risks-of-buy-and-hold-index-investing.html/comment-page-1#comment-25151</link>
		<dc:creator>Raghu Bilhana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Aug 2011 18:38:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=199#comment-25151</guid>
		<description>@George

That is the reason you do DCA and follow the principles of asset allocation.

Your flat theory assumes you would have invested all your money in a single lumpsum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@George</p>
<p>That is the reason you do DCA and follow the principles of asset allocation.</p>
<p>Your flat theory assumes you would have invested all your money in a single lumpsum.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-major-risks-of-buy-and-hold-index-investing.html/comment-page-1#comment-25150</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Aug 2011 17:41:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=199#comment-25150</guid>
		<description>I fixed the link.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I fixed the link.</p>
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		<title>By: George the original one</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-major-risks-of-buy-and-hold-index-investing.html/comment-page-1#comment-25149</link>
		<dc:creator>George the original one</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Aug 2011 17:33:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=199#comment-25149</guid>
		<description>Aaargh, stupid long links... anyway, take a look at a chart for that period and you&#039;ll see the indexes were indeed flat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aaargh, stupid long links&#8230; anyway, take a look at a chart for that period and you&#8217;ll see the indexes were indeed flat.</p>
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		<title>By: FreeUrChains</title>
		<link>http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-major-risks-of-buy-and-hold-index-investing.html/comment-page-1#comment-25148</link>
		<dc:creator>FreeUrChains</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Aug 2011 17:32:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earlyretirementextreme.com/?p=199#comment-25148</guid>
		<description>I like dealing with month to month profits in stocks and your own business, not long term investments from 1 year to 20 years. Life is to short, my attention span is to short! You can&#039;t touch a butterfly without change!

Creating your own profits with a business is the real way to control your investments. It&#039;s very risky because it&#039;s self dependent, but at least it&#039;s your money under your control. Plus i like saying I have 17.9 Million Shares of XXXX Company, and reading news articles how FreeUrChains is CEO of XXXX Company. It makes my day and goes to my head, aka gives me confidence. Forecasts are then seen for 200% growth (hopefully) at the end of Year 5, then the impact on the whole world begins after your IPO ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like dealing with month to month profits in stocks and your own business, not long term investments from 1 year to 20 years. Life is to short, my attention span is to short! You can&#8217;t touch a butterfly without change!</p>
<p>Creating your own profits with a business is the real way to control your investments. It&#8217;s very risky because it&#8217;s self dependent, but at least it&#8217;s your money under your control. Plus i like saying I have 17.9 Million Shares of XXXX Company, and reading news articles how FreeUrChains is CEO of XXXX Company. It makes my day and goes to my head, aka gives me confidence. Forecasts are then seen for 200% growth (hopefully) at the end of Year 5, then the impact on the whole world begins after your IPO <img src='http://earlyretirementextreme.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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