Comments on: Who needs a college degree anyway?

By: SparkyGA

SparkyGA — Sat, 10 Dec 2011 05:52:55 +0000

I’m a proud, non university grad that, by having too low of grades to enter a Canadian university, thankful for not have wasted his time.

Trades and crafts are going away? Quite the opposite actually where I live. The baby boomers who were doing these sorts of jobs have began to retire, while my generation was told to go to university/college and get a degree. The result is the average tradesperson now making more than most medical/law/engineering etc degree holding people.

There is nothing wrong with backpacking during college. I’ve been on the road for the past 16 months.

By: Gene

Gene — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 22:55:10 +0000

How about a top 5 list of the degrees that are still worth it:

1) mathematics
2) law
3) medicine
4) finance/accounting
5) engineering (any type)

By: sid

sid — Sat, 03 Dec 2011 21:30:17 +0000

I am a senior in high school and my mom is reading the ERE book, so that’s why I just randomly found this. I’m in the process of applying to college right now (today), and I am finding it difficult to see the point in going to college for a “required” experience with an expected outcome. The colleges, in endless emails, say you should go their schools (specifically) to “broaden your horizons,” which is great and something I want to do, but at the same time it is pretty ironic that there is only one societally approved way to “broaden” horizons. It frustrates me to have to apply for special scholarships just so I can afford to go to college for a worthwhile amount of money and not damage myself/parents. But oh well, I just needed to complain I guess. I have to do all of this stuff in the end anyway, and whatever happens I will probably be fine as long as I can learn something. The end.

By: Carol@inthetrenches

Carol@inthetrenches — Sat, 03 Dec 2011 21:04:33 +0000

Agree. 12 years of taxpayer subsidized education is ENOUGH. If people put in their 100% they would come out of those years with far more skills and knowledge than they have now. Math has multi levels, most schools offer a number of languages, etc. Vocational programs are also available. The fact that we have people graduating and cannot read is deplorable. And, yes, I certainly could have worked on my spelling more.

By: Roger

Roger — Sat, 03 Dec 2011 14:06:42 +0000

Good for you for speaking the truth. I am a recent retiree, and way back in 1974 I graduated with an engineering degree. I utilized the GI Bill to pay for it and it got me a good paying job in California. I eventually became a manager and started hiring college graduates who could not write a business memo. I paid for 2 kids to go to a state college and in hindsight, one of them had no business in college. I often find myself asking, “How in the world did she get a degree.” I went on to get an MBA and then taught as an adjunct. It was there I saw first hand how students expected a B just for showing up.

By: Dr. Dave

Dr. Dave — Sun, 25 Sep 2011 20:10:59 +0000

In eight years I went from a 10th grade high school dropout to a DVM (Doctor of Veterinary Medicine), but I have to agree with 99% of what Jacob writes. The vast majority of people I knew in undergrad were there to party hardy, get laid, and or explore the mind bending possibility of beer. I was ten years older than them and had a full scholarship for the last two years of undergrad and vet school. For me going to school was a job, and one I took very seriously. I’ve been a practicing vet for seven years now, making close to six figures with zero debt, but obviously if I am at extreme early retirement I am thinking of getting out of clinical practice. I love teaching, or at least the idea of teaching but the comments from people who are presently teaching leave me wondering if that makes any sense.

By: Onto

Onto — Sun, 25 Jul 2010 13:40:32 +0000

A productive gap year can be a very good investment of time. An extra year of maturity at that age means a good deal. Time before uni spent working locally or abroad, or travelling/volunteering, can be wonderfully eye opening and provide direction where there was none.

I offered my son the option of taking the 200k set aside for his education and using it to buy a place to live and/or investment. He chose to attend college (mathematics). I still am not sure it was the right choice.

By: Money Reasons

Money Reasons — Sat, 24 Jul 2010 17:01:02 +0000

I agree, but I had a great time in college.

Unlike my peers, I loved some the electives! It was great learning about those the different disciplines. I think the sharing of ideas even expanded my believe system and knowledge. Being smart without knowledge is kind of like having a flower locked in the basement. It might be beautiful down there, but nobodies sees it and eventually it dies from lack of sun.

So I agree with 85% of what you say, most majors are a waste of time in college. 15% of college course have value (mainly science, tech skils)…

In the social area, I made a few great friends there and even met my wife in college. So for me it was a success!

Great article as always…

By: Kevin M

Kevin M — Fri, 23 Jul 2010 20:01:21 +0000

Just saw this…

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/23/is-college-necessary-fewe_n_657095.html

By: Concojones

Concojones — Fri, 23 Jul 2010 19:17:39 +0000

Jacob,
I agree it’s a pity that education is often specialized training, depending on the country. However, even specialized math/physics (or in my case: engineering) training develops thorough reasoning skills that are very difficult to achieve otherwise. To put it in the words of a business consultant who spoke to us about his profession: “we’re not hiring engineers for their knowledge – it’s useless to us. We just need their critical thinking skills, that’s why we hire only engineers.” That critical thinking can also be used in life matters: is this politician telling bullshit? do I really need this advertized product? Critical thinking in situations where you’d otherwise have acted on a primitive/emotional level (which is more natural after all).

When I said that North Americans can seem ignorant to me at times, I wasn’t just thinking of their knowledge of the world (I understand), rather things like being incredibly naive (just my impression?) when it comes to scams/advertizing/consumerism/debt, wives that take too much sh*t from their husbands, questionable religious practices, etc. (Maybe I’ve watched too much DrPhil I often feel about the US as a country where the smart have jobs that exist to separate the less smart/educated from their money, with no regard for the misery caused. The less smart/educated seem just naive and blind to defend themselves. It seems like a jungle out there, more than anywhere else. Just my impression.

By: Jacob

Jacob — Fri, 23 Jul 2010 06:21:39 +0000

@Concojones – It’s tricky to tell for sure because my experience is an unrepeatable experiment.

A few points.

In myCountry, there’s actually no such thing as a generalized college education. After high school (which admittedly seems to end on the equivalent of a first year US college education), studies are fully directed. The only classes I ever took at the university was physics and math. My chemistry knowledge is (or rather was) at the level of a second year high school student… a 17 year old. My writing skills are formally that of an 18 year high school graduate. The rest is practice.

I started posting in forums online when I was 14. My teachers noticed that the quality of my writing picked up substantially. I used to hand in two page essays. Suddenly I was handing in 4 or 5 pages and was being told that “I wrote like a journalist”.

More importantly [for the point at hand] … I have read a lot. I have read far far more than most people and I have mainly read nonfiction. I have a huge and wide amount of knowledge to draw on. Most of this exist in a structure thanks to the INTJ wiring. I am not that good with trivia anymore. Now I think more in fundamentals. So I’d attribute it to having read a large quantity of material (the equivalent of several college educations, perhaps), and being fairly smart about it. I’m not saying this to sound smart. I don’t think I’m conceited. To give an example … I read Red Storm Rising in English (second language) in the 9th grade, voluntarily.

I am a natural intellectual.

Most college students are not.

I even find that many professors are not. (I was very surprised once I learned that. During my years in academia, I was surrounded by very intelligent people, but it often felt like an intellectual oasis.)

I’d like to return the university system to focus more on the intellectual aspect. Less on specialized knowledge.

In terms of the “ignorant Americans”-problem; I think this is caused substantially by the US being a big and self-sufficient country. Americans, essentially, do not need to know about the rest of the world, since everything can be sourced on a national level. Foreign affairs are relegated to page 7 on the newspaper. Conversely, for a smaller country, foreign affairs are very important. They are headline news. Europeans may seem smarter, but I think that’s mainly because their “States” are countries. They can name all the countries in Europe, but they can’t name all the states in the US although some states are bigger than some countries. Similarly, Americans may not be well-informed about the meanderings of the white house, yet how many Europeans know the details of what goes on in Brussels. I say this an ignorant European. I have no idea who the various commissionaires are and I can only locate about 10-15 US states on a map.

By: Concojones

Concojones — Fri, 23 Jul 2010 05:53:15 +0000

If I read Jacob correctly, he acknowledges the mind-opening value of college education, but he thinks it’s a bit of a waste for most.

Jacob, I think you underestimate the importance of your education on even just your own (thorough) thinking. You’re probably not aware of it, but I am regularly surprised at the quality of your thinking (compared to my own). I don’t see that a lot. Others have said things along the same lines. Some have said they often can’t follow your reasoning (education, education!!).

Another point I want to make is about the value of universal education on society. Let’s face it: the very majority will never do things that would get them the same value as a college education. Result is a society with lots of ignorance. I always get the impression that Americans and Canadians are on average more ignorant than people in my country, especially those not living in big cities on one of the coasts …with all sorts of problems as a result. (Jacob, do you have the same impression?). I credit that to the difference in the % of people who get a college education (it’s huge here). Yes, it’s a huge cost on society, but if it makes people just a tiny bit less dumb, clueless and ignorant, that’s priceless. Widespread stupidity leads to problems for all of us.

In conclusion, I’d reorganize the college system to keep the good and eliminate the bad, rather than abolishing it.

By: ERE User

ERE User — Fri, 23 Jul 2010 03:11:30 +0000

What if the education is free from scholarship?

By: ERE User

ERE User — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 23:49:25 +0000

Great article.

By: Insurance Izzy

Insurance Izzy — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 18:03:48 +0000

@Jacob
I agree with you on some of your points, especially in regards to public universities. And the falling value of the A is something I have serious contentions with. But my experience at a small private university has been much better. Professors are able to tailor classes much more to the individual’s level, you can challenge yourself by taking more credits, and (because you’re paying much more money) I think people are more inclined to take school seriously… or else they drop out after a semester or two.
I also agree that not every job should require a college degree. But although my degree in history hasn’t necessarily made me an expert on all areas of history, it taught me some necessary skills. How to read for the important clues, how to write a really long paper, and how to contribute to a conversation or project. All of those are undoubtedly useful skills to have in the real world.
Finally, even if you don’t get as much educational value out of school as you might, it is also a good growing up experience. For some people, its their first time away from home. You learn how to feed yourself, you might get your first part time job, and you stop depending on your parents. Its a segway into the real world that I believe helps create people better able to deal with the stresses of the real world. You don’t go straight from high school into job interviews, renting your own apartment, and dealing with taxes and bills for the first time. College provides a good transition period.
Bottom line is, I agree with most of what you say, but college has its own place in our society. And it does useful things for the kids that go. Not everyone gets the same things out of it, but most people that go also remember it as one of the best times of their lives. That’s got to count for something right?

By: Kevin M

Kevin M — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 18:00:27 +0000

@annie – your son is probably financially ahead of most Americans that have pursued the Dream (TM). Good for him, and you, that you didn’t get sucked in. Good luck to him.

By: annie

annie — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 17:08:21 +0000

Jacob, I agree! I had it all (what the world calls having it all) I walked away to follow my passion. and never looked back, never grieved over the (worldly wealth) I left behind. My children became better people for it and so did I! My fmily thought I’d gone mad and still worry all these yrs later of what I gave up..They still dont see the bigger picture..

By: Jacob

Jacob — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 16:39:25 +0000

@annie – What has happened is that “a college degree” (it’s called a degree now, not an education) has become part of the “American Dream”(tm) along with the big house and the two cars in the drive way. The “American Dream”(tm) is heavily advertised which is probably the mean part of the problem. It’s heavily pushed by the sellers but it’s also pushed by the great majority who bought into it. Not buying a degree is probably on the same level of “challenge” as not buying a car or not buying the biggest house the bank will allow.

By: annie

annie — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 16:05:57 +0000

I am so tired of people giving me the look and saying OH! When asked where my son will be attending college in the fall, I say proudly he isn’t! He is following his talent and passion in mechanics… When did we become a society of snobs? since he was just a little boy he could take anything mechanical and fix it. I encouraged him ! He is a high school graduate and at 18 has 2 vehicles paid for, supporting himself with a good paying job doing what he loves. Just got his first loan (on his own) and bought a motorcycle his other passion. He supports himself and looked at college but just couldn’t see having to pay all the student loans for something he has no desire to do. As parents we need to allow our children to follow thier path not the one we want for them. My daughter is living her dream that I also encouraged for her to follow her passion. She is a success. A piece of paper is just a piece of paper if it is to please others.

By: Kevin M

Kevin M — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 15:08:21 +0000

I think college will be the next bubble to burst. When kids (or maybe their parents?) start realizing a degree does not equal automatic employment things will change.

The one thing college was good for in my case was learning to socialize and talk to new people. Luckily I went through my 5 years on scholarship and had no loans to pay off when I graduated. I’m not sure it actually taught me how to learn any better than high school did. I’m good at self-study so all the class info I could have learned on my own anyway. But then I wouldn’t have had that piece of paper to show employers or a GPA to put on my resume.