DW says $600 for insurance and that her commuting (job) has increased gas to $600. This leaves $800 for depreciation which is not enough. It’s probably closer to $2500 then. Good news is that DW is 50/50 on getting a motor cycle instead.

Don’t forget, when you have a car, you also have to save for the next one. They don’t last forever. If you get a cheapie, then you have to factor in repair costs. As well, only $50 a month in gas? $2500 is a very conservative figure; it is probably much higher.

My family moved to a different city in order for us to live in a bike friendly city. My daughter still uses the to go horseback riding in the country and that’s about it. I NEVER drive it to work, not even on the coldest of cold days or the rainiest of rainy days. I LOVE my walk or bike ride to work. It puts me in the mood for work instead of in a slumber. As soon as my daughter moves away, I may consider ditching the car as well. (My husband still has a van, so we’re not going to be car free. Can’t jump over that hurdle yet.)

I gave my car to an adult daughter Sept 07 to force myself to get exercise. On nice days I walk or bike 2.8 miles to work. On blustery days I take the bus free with student ID (senior at 48!). College, supermarkets, the library, theater, parks, ethnic markets & my favorite bookstores are all on or near major bus routes.

I’m just now coming to understand the FI outlook & getting rid of the Taurus was a big step in that direction. Going carless has given me an unexpected sense of freedom. The longer I go without one the less inclined I am to replace it. It’s only occasionally been inconvenient. The only real drawbacks have been walking in a couple of blizzards and a few moose encounters. But hey, this is Anchorage, Alaska and that’s everyday life. So if I can go carless here, Jacob, you probably can too.

Pressing the thread in the direction that Fe26will took it in the 2nd paragraph, anyone who can’t live in or near any city without a car is not using the human brain. I think the greater challenge would / will be living in a rural area without a motorized vehicle. “Taken for granted” is a well-worn term, but is it anywhere more applicable than to the conveniences of modern life in or near a modern city? I’m not a pessimist, but I also don’t think it implausible that people (via their governments) could screw up a really good thing at some point. Thus, I find it not impractical to at least consider having a plan for how to live without a car in a rural area, should modern cities become unlivable.

I went without a car for four years in a city with mediocre mass transportation.

I took a bus to work.

I walked to or took a bus to buy groceries. I considered grocery shopping to be my aerobic activity for the day. I put the heavy stuff in my backpack and carried the light stuff in a paper bag. Yes, this was in the olden days before plastic bags and before it occurred to me to bring my own bags.

I took a bus to do laundry. (It’s good to put a towel across the top of your laundry basket so your undies aren’t so visible.)

Whenever I wanted to visit my parents (a four-hour drive away), I would rent a car. There are two kinds of rental car places: 1) the kinds in airports geared toward people who have cars but are traveling and 2) the other kind, geared toward people who have cars that are in the shop. The latter is better equipped to serve the carless.

I had a friend who would lend me his car when he went out of town in return for using it to drive him to and from the airport. I used that car to load up on big, heavy things I’d been wanting to buy, and occasionally I’d rent a car for a weekend for that sort of thing. I also once took a taxi home from a place where I bought a TV (that was expensive!!).

My only real problem was parties. Back then I could still get to most of my friends’ houses on the bus, but the buses would quit running long before I was ready to leave the party. I could always find people to give me rides back, but none of them would let me pay them with money or in any other way, even if I was out of their way. I didn’t like that. And now half of my friends live out in the suburbs where I couldn’t get to them at all.

So, now I have a car. However, I buy ten-year-old cars of reliable makes and keep them until they die–so far about ten additional years. I don’t get collision insurance. And I still don’t drive to work (or much at all–I fill the tank once a month or less). I have kept good records–this costs me $150/month (including gas, insurance, upkeep, and repairs) plus I save $50/month toward the next car. So my cost is $2400/year.

So, do I only use my car for parties? No. I also drive it to dance lessons and ultimate frisbee games and, I admit it, I use it to go grocery shopping. (I now have my own washer, so don’t leave the house to do laundry.)

On the other hand, I also lend it to people whose cars are in the shop (both my boyfriend and my sister have borrowed my car many times). And whenever my boyfriend and I go anywhere together, I drive because I have better gas mileage (and create less pollution). So, given my current circumstances, I much prefer having a car, for $200/month, than not having one.

I would rather go without a car, though, than to buy a new one every five to seven years and have to buy comprehensive insurance (and freak out about every little dent on the outside of the car and every little crumb on the inside). I suspect that would cost me three to four times as much as my current strategy does.

I have one additional piece of advice if you go without a car. Get yourself added to someone’s car insurance. I know if that person is in your household, and they indicate that you will be driving only 1% of the time, that probably won’t cost them any extra. If you have to use a friend or relative who lives elsewhere, I’m not sure how that works out.

But it’s very good to have car insurance in this society. 1) It’s there for you when you rent cars. 2) It’s there for you if you borrow someone else’s car or drive home a drunk friend in their car. It just gives you more flexibility. 3) If you ever decide you want a car again, or you get a job with a company car, you won’t get penalized for not having had insurance. It’s true, they penalize you for not having insurance even if you didn’t own a car or have access to one. People are just not rational about cars in this society.

For people with children who live in cities with poor (or no) public transportation, I think shooting for having only one car is a more realistic goal.

For me, having a car is a necessity for two reasons:
1) I live too far from work to walk/bike (not to mention the uncooperative climate here). I work downtown; I have lived downtown in the past but it is detrimental to my health due to noise, crime, etc. Just not a suitable environment for me. I need peace and quiet and distance from neighbors or I go a little nuts.

2) I suffer from severe motion sickness. Sometimes I even have trouble walking straight! A ten-minute bus ride is a nightmare for me. For some reason I am unaffected when driving myself.

So, to offset the “need”[0] for a car, I drive a reliable, 13-year-old sedan that requires very little maintenance cost and gets great mileage.

[0] Sure, “need” is relative. Let’s just say I’m not willing to make the necessary sacrifices (i.e. moving downtown or buying vertigo medicine…)

Jacob,

You are technically right (as usual!) about one not really *needing* a car. We don’t *need* a lot of things. And I admire your ability to match your actions with your rational thoughts, in order to achieve a certain financial goal. You live in strict accordance with your reason.

But I am starting to gradually realize the extent to which we live in an irrational society. Nay, world. I think most human beings (the extroverted, aggressive, non-INTJ majority) are irrational. They mimic other people, and those other people in turn mimic the rich and/or advertising: it’s one big mess. People will drive cars as long as other people drive cars… to fit in and be seen as “normal.” In the US for example, consumption is the only way to express yourself in a way that is “socially acceptable.” People talk about what cars they bought, or how they are redecorating the backyard, and this is a part of everyday mindless small talk. But in mainstream society, it is taboo to talk about existential matters: why are we alive, what are we doing with our time, what is the purpose of this short time we have before we are worm food??? These are the things that tap into our emotional and spiritual cores. If man really had his best interests at heart (aka was “rational”) then he would seek to address his spiritual and emotional needs as well as his physical ones.

But no.

The physical ones are taken cared of (food, shelter, etc.) But instead of turning attention to the other needs, we have evolved into a creature-comforts FETISHIZING advertising culture. It’s disgusting. Essentially all of marketing is about how to: decorate the physical body, decorate the home, decorate the car, decorate, decorate, decorate. Everything except decorating the soul and the mind. In the pursuit of things, we have become a “thing” as well.

I’ve been carless for two weeks after mine got impounded (long story)and we are debating getting rid of it all together. My Wife bikes to work every day (no need for a second car) and I can get everywhere by public transport.

That’s not the problem, as Kevin pointed out, it’s the weekends, the lack of flexibity I miss. I had to cancel on some plans becuase I wasn’t will to spend another 2 hours on the metro (1 hour each way) on the metro. So far we’re coping by renting a car on the weekend and cost wise it’s working out ok.

Ouch. It hurts a bit to hear that your wife manages to car commute for $2500 a year; my public transit commute comes in around $2300 annually.

Even at that price tag, I think it’s worth not owning a car, though.

If you live in an area that allows you to do that, then that’s great. Living in rural areas is really not conducive to not having a car though. Do you think we should move back to horses? 🙂
Where I’m living now, I can actually commute using the bus or my bike. But most of the time I don’t do that. Because taking a car is ten times more convenient. It takes less time to go where you want to go, you aren’t going to sweat because you’re biking, you don’t have to follow a bus schedule, and you have space to haul around all the junk that inevitably ends up in your trunk.

Actually $2,000,000 of forgone retirement savings if you’re a couple with two typical $6,000/year cars. Impressive indeed! And that’s in today’s dollars. However, a car can be had for just $2,000 (excluding gas, for fair comparison with the bus). So that’s the number most of us will want to use.

When I graduated 4 years ago, I remember thinking I should get a car soon. Here in Europe it comes with working life – or at least so I thought! Glad I didn’t rush out to buy one immediately, because 4 years later I still don’t have one and feel less likely than ever to buy one. I’ve also come to see that it’s common not to have a car, especially among young city dwellers (I’m one too BTW). One day I plan to live in the country side and have kids, so maybe I’ll buy a car then, but not before trying to go without one first.

OK, I admit it: I love cars. Gasp, and I really am paying about $5k per year for the privilege!

But… I’d probably be divorced if we didn’t have one. Now about the other dozen cars I own, well, that’s the love part and at least they’re recycled 🙂

I would love to hear DW’s opinion on all this. Because I am thinking about what I would do if my DH suggested that I should double my commute time, but that it wouldn’t be a problem because I could read. Global thermonuclear war or something close, probably.

Counting depreciation, the car I owned for 15 years (1992-2007) cost me about $2,000-$2,500 a year (included insurance, gas, maintenance, fees). I did not use that car for commuting to work and drove it about 3,000 miles per year. My commutation expenses on the trains were between $1,700 and $2,300 per year in those years for the most part.

When I was working full-time, I did not go out much during the week so the car sat idle most of the time. Once I began working part-time, I used the car more to pursue my interests.

I live in the downtown area of my village so most tings I can walk to (i.e. library, post office, deli, bank) but other places such as a supermarket are further away. That and my hobbies (and visiting friends and relatives) are what I use the car the most for.

For those of us who do consulting-type jobs, a car is pretty much an essential part of life. I’m from Holland and I drive all over the country to my customers. But, with these types of job, a lease car is pretty much standard. I’m not sure how that works in the States.

In Holland, you can opt to use your lease car for private purposes or not. If not, it doesn’t cost you a dime, if you do use it privately it will be taxed, which costs you roughly between 1500 and 6000 euros a year, depending on the price of the car, the environmental friendliness of the car and your tax bracket (which run to 52% here).

This just for grins and giggles:

The Edmund’s TCO (True Cost to Own) on a
Cadillac Escalade Premium Model SUV is:

$100,628.00

How would that fit in your budget?

I prefer the pearly white colored ones. 🙂

Source: Edmund’s

Can you say “upside down”?

Summary
True Cost to Own® * $100,628 view details
Total Cash Price $75,589 view details
Average Cost per Mile* $1.34 compare popular models
True Cost to Own® Ratings**
operating cost rating
0

10
depreciation cost rating
0

10
* This is a 5-year estimate (based on 15,000 miles per year).
** Ratings are based on a comparison of this vehicle to all new vehicles.
Rating scale is 0 to 10 where 10 is best.
Based on regional costs for Zip Code:

True Cost to Own®
Year 1 Year 2 Year 3 Year 4 Year 5 5-yr Total
Depreciation $17,772 $6,804 $5,988 $5,306 $4,764 $40,634
Taxes & Fees $6,656 $363 $318 $279 $245 $7,861
Fuel $3,421 $3,524 $3,630 $3,739 $3,851 $18,165
Maintenance $278 $861 $1,039 $2,307 $775 $5,260
Repairs $0 $0 $0 $808 $1,237 $2,045
Tax Credit $0 $0 $0 $0 $0 $0
Financing $4,109 $3,306 $2,448 $1,532 $554 $11,949

Get Pre-Approved Financing–Apply for a Car Loan
Insurance $2,744 $2,840 $2,939 $3,042 $3,149 $14,714

Compare Insurance Rates
Yearly Totals $34,980 $17,698 $16,362 $17,013 $14,575 $100,628

Get Additional True Cost to Own® Information

Renting a car is what $30 a weekend x 50 weekends? $1500/yr. Plus minor gas costs. Add insurance that u gotta have (in CA at least) and its prolly the same as the $2500/yr for all of you guys.

I think the car is an extension of our gains in society, at least, american society. Some societies have been engineered so as to not need a car, some towns and cities modified for bikes (Portland, parts of San Jose, etc) and some places are not that far advanced and thus, do not use cars. In fact those types of comparisons are apples and oranges. People in sub-saharan africa have more important things to worry about that having a car – they need to worry about eating and shelter, etc.

I think for the countryside, there isn’t anything wrong with horses as transport (to like neighbors and such). People with motorcycles have saddle bags right? Motorcycles are also a way to go, as they almost require you to learn how to maintain and they have good cost to value ratios. And u don’t sit in traffic 😉 …much.

We all take for granted we have the ability to have discussions like this, instead of wondering if we’ll have enough to buy food this month.

I think a comparison to places like Mexico or Cuba, where poor is persistant and older cars exist would be relevant as these places have converse arrangements with other services (like Cubans can be well trained doctors, etc)…end rambling

I’m 29 and have never owned a car. Though I’ve never lived in a rural area or a suburb (largely cause I hate them for being so car-dependent), I have lived in Lubbock, TX, Austin, TX, five neighborhoods of Chicago, and a small college town.

I’ve usually relied on public transportation. Has it sometimes been inconvenient? Sometimes in Texas, but never unmanageable. Do weird people talk to me sometimes? Sure, and I ignore them or move. I have never been robbed or had anything truly scary happen to me on public transit.

Most of the time I have been able to do groceries by walking (sometimes with a wheeled cart) or by having a friend/boyfriend drive me (they offered). Otherwise I would use a cab (for a cost of about $10 every few weeks) or rent a Zipcar (I don’t know how available those are nationwide, but they’re widespread in Chicago). I make few other bulky purchases, and as Jacob said, usually they can be handled online (and are cheaper that way). Clothes you can carry. Furniture can usually be delivered, or you can use a van-type cab. But how often do you need to buy furniture, anyway?

As for the arguments that people don’t want to live in or travel through slums, I have NEVER seen a city or town in which the entire central city is a slum. I’ve lived in some pretty bad places, but they still had decent neighborhoods somewhere within the city. Maybe Gary or Detroit or some other Rust Belt areas are total slums? I don’t know. I think most people who say this really just want a yard, new house, or other conveniences of the suburbs. I think we privileged white people greatly exaggerate the danger of traveling through a slum. At least in the U.S. I’ll grant you it may be more dangerous in a developing country.

@Christopher – You need roughly $30-40,000 in investments + replacement costs to own the car. Whether that’s a lot is of course relative.

I own a car. I drive it every weekend. My wife and I moved right between our 2 families, which are a two-hour drive each way. It is easier for us to drive to see them then it is for them to see us. My friends live in various places all over an hour or two away in very rural spots.

I don’t like the cost of the car, but in order to visit friends and family, I have one. I don’t need to drive it to work, but I like the 40 minutes the car would save over the bicycle ride every day. Environmentally, it’s terrible the emissions I’m creating which is the one reason I will probably ride my bicycle more often – it’s just a waste of resources.

This last weekend I took it in to get its oil changed (first time in 11 months) and was told that the suspension was going bad on it (it shakes excessively). Once this happens I think that the car will be totaled.

I’m still on the fence with wether I want to replace it with a microcar (basically a glorified golfcart) or a velomobile (a recumbent bycicle with a shell).

Either way my max speed will drop from 65mph (maximum speed limit in Wisconsin) to 30-ish mph. Right now I am leaning towards the velomobile.

“People in sub-saharan africa have more important things to worry about that having a car – they need to worry about eating and shelter, etc.”

So do we. At least me.

Some of us who aren’t yet FI do in fact need the cargo hauling capacity and mobility that a car (or in my case a pickup) affords us. Working in the glorious field of retail, I have to distribute inventory from the central location to two others, and sometimes back. I also have to instantaneously show up when the store gets broken into, robbed, or someone doesn’t show for work. After FI, this situation will obviously be different.

I’ve looked into other solutions. I even started commuting by bike and using a cargo trailer (just two days/week to start, hopefully to move up to 4), but then the high temps here in TX got to be over 100 every day. So far we’ve had over 65 days of 100+ degree heat this summer. And the shortest round trip in one day of work is about 20 miles. When the high temperature drops below 90, I’ll be at it again, but I’m not into heat stroke, which is a very real danger with a commute/delivery that long in this weather.

Another thing to consider is that my mileage gets reimbursed. My enlarged lunches don’t. And my workday is longer when I bike. So it’s definitely a sacrifice of time, effort, and convenience for the sake of ideals.

I get good enough mpg that the gas is paid for. I haven’t researched routine maintenance and depreciation, though. If I did, I suspect I would find that I do indeed save a little money when I bike. I still can’t fathom going without a vehicle, though, for emergencies and for weather (and a job) like this.

So, here I am way behind. Probably the worst offender to date. Pun intended. I was forced to go without a car for 18 mths after a marriage break up where he got everything. Before I had been driving 40-50 miles per day. It was hard at first but like everything in my life, I embraced it. Rather than complaining about walking, I appreciated the exercise. Buses gave me an opportunity to engage with other people and I grew a secret goal to make every bus driver happy. When I was given a car from my nephew, most weeks it just sat in the drive. But the longer I had it the more I used it. I now work too far and from home to do without. There also not a good bus service there. But I know with planning I can live without a car. Maybe not until I do retire which but knowing that when I retire means I’ll need less money to retire on so in effect being able to live without a car after retirement will still bring retirement sooner.